Pronunciation experts needed McKEOWN

[MythicalMarian]

I am hoping some of our Irish experts can help me on a problem I still have with my great-great grandmother's family who came over from somewhere in Ireland to Manchester/Salford just prior to 1842. I am still unsure of her surname, as it seems to appear in grossly different formats on the documentation I have to date.

Here's the scenario: John Hayes married Catherine McKeown at Manchester Cathedral on 27 Mar 1842. Now, I have always pronounced that surname more-or-less as McEwan, although I know that some pronounce it more as McCowan? Armed with this maiden name I sent off for my great grandfather's birth certificate (this is quite some years ago) and when it came back with the correct John Henry Hayes born in 1846, the mother's surname is given as McKoin. The occupier of the lodging house where they lived registered the birth - a Patrick McKoin of Brooks Court in Manchester. Nothing daunted, I began to intone the name McCowan in a Northern Irish accent and it would indeed approximate to something like McKoin. Although I tried some years ago to obtain birth certificates for two of great granddad's sisters, this drew a blank as I only knew their approximate ages through censuses. I need a couple more birth certificates to see what this Irish surname finally 'settled down' as! Alas, the surname Hayes is very common, so trailing through the BMDs is going to produce some errors, I fear, therefore I definitely need Catherine's correct surname.

When searching the 1841 census for my unmarried Catherine McKeown/McCowan or whatever, I came across a family actually living at Brooks Court (where my great grandfather was born). Patrick was the head of house and a Catherine of the right age was indeed in the house. However, in this census, the surname is given as McKean !! This has thrown me completely now. My Catherine's Dad at marriage was stated to be William McKeown, but of course he could have died while the family was still in Ireland and this Patrick from the birth certificate is perhaps an Uncle or cousin.

My great-great grandmother and this Patrick McKoin/McKeown or whatever were naturally illiterate, so the registrars would have had a free hand to write the surname as they heard it. This would also be the case with the vicar at the Cathedral, and Catherine would have had no way of checking if this was correct.

So - do any of you know exactly how McKeown would have been pronounced in the 19th century in Ireland itself. I am assuming they came from the North as they were Protestants, but of course this may be wrong. Would the name be pronounced differently in the North and the South? And could it possibly have ever been mixed up with a surname sounding like McKean?

Help!

[Colin Moretti]

I'm no expert about such matters, I'm afraid, I can only report my own experience. I have relatives who went by the name MCQUOIN. The spelling changed not at all (as far as I'm aware) for all the records I've been able to find from about 1814 on in London (I don't know where they originated). I have been told by two independent authoritative sources that the name should be pronounced McEwen.

The Catholic Family History Society has recently published transcriptions of baptism registers from two Catholic Churches in Manchester, St Mary's Mulberry St and St Patrick's, Livesey St. In the introduction they say this:

The greatest difficulty, however, is the quality of spelling by many of the priests. Apart from their idiosyncratic spelling of common names, such as Connolly, Cain or Gallagher, they sometimes seem to have had little idea how to spell uncommon ones. This especially true of two French (or Belgian) priests, some of whose entries in the late 1840s and early 1850s are quite bizarre – to the point where it is almost impossible even to guess what the names really were. ... When using the Index for finding the names you want, use as much imagination as you can in looking for all possible spellings. In my own researches, I have found Corfil for Cawfield, and Caraghan for Kerrigan. I was able to identify them only because of the mother’s maiden name.

Presumably similar, if not quite so bizarre, spelling variations are likely to occur in the GRO indexes.

Before you ask, there seem to be no baptisms listed that might be relevant to your search.

I hope this helps,

Colin

[JNicLiam]

Hi Marian

I am from Cork but my sister now lives in Northern Ireland and sounds like she was born and bred there. All the spelling variants that you refer to seem possible versions of the name depending on where in Ireland the speaker was from.

The fact that someone was literate or not did not neccessarily effect the accuracy of how a name was recorded on official documents. My own grandmorther and her parents, siblings and grandparents were all literate yet her birth, baptism and marriage certificate show her surname as Quaide, Quaid and Mac Quaid respectively. Spellings of Irish surnames in the 19th century and even early twentieth century were quite fluid. Many ordinary folk were unlikely to question a cleryman or public official and insist on a particular spelling. Deference was accorded to people with more standing in society. Also people were known in their own locality and seem to have been much less fixed on preciseness of surnames than the current generation.

Regards
Jill Williams

[MythicalMarian]

Thanks so much for your help on this, Jill and Colin. It does help me to 'claim' the Catherine McKean at Brooks Court on the 1841 census as my Catherine McKeown (or whatever she is, bless her!). I am sure that when I finally manage to get a couple more birth certificates for her daughters, the name will settle down. I will try to trace one of her siblings from that 1841 census too, to see if that throws any light.

Once again, thanks.

[v.wells]

And if you find a registration, use the exact spelling when ordering from GRO or they will reject it as being wrong. I have had to order certs in the name of Stewart, Stuart, Steuart. I have also run across entries such as Steart ect. Makes it very difficult

[MythicalMarian]

And if you find a registration, use the exact spelling when ordering from GRO or they will reject it as being wrong. I have had to order certs in the name of Stewart, Stuart, Steuart. I have also run across entries such as Steart ect. Makes it very difficult

Good point, Val, especially with a surname like Hayes - and this is why I am waiting until Lancashire BMD update their site to include the reg district of Manchester where my Hayes/McKeown couple were. I have found the local register offices to be more helpful - they will actually telephone and ask a few pertinent questions if there is a doubt about the right certificate. I rarely apply to the GRO these days, unless I am absolutely desperate.

One way round it all, of course, is just to apply for a birth certificate with the father's name on and leave the Mum as simply 'Catherine'. After all, the reason for applying for birth certificates is to discover the mother's maiden name.

[MythicalMarian]

Just as a thank you to the kind people who replied to this topic, I now have an update. My Catherine's surname on her last two daughters' birth certificates is written quite clearly as McKeon. This leads me to suspect that the family on the 1841 census occupying the very house where my great-grandfather was later born, i.e a family written as what looks like 'McKean' is in fact 'McKeon' and my Catherine is there after all.

Thanks to all who helped with this, but I fear my McKeon research may be on the back burner for a long time until I can find the place in Ireland where Cath was born. Onwards, ever onwards...

[happyjoe]

Hello Mythical Marian,

I found your thread and thought I'd reply, 8 years later! Who knows, it might still be helpful to someone somewhere if posted.

First pronounce 'McKee' and then 'own', then try them together really fast, with 'eo' pronounced more like 'yo'.

The pronunciation is really difficult for both English and Americans (even if they are of irish ancestry) :-) I've only heard it being pronounced consistently in Ireland (I've never been to Scotland - was told the name ultimately originated there) The McKeown are said to have come from Scotland, settled in Northern Ireland and then moved further south.

I tried having an Englishman pronounce it and he could not. Apparently, it has something to do with those particular vowels in a row not existing in the English language – the mouth is not trained for what it considers wild gymnastics. The English end up pronouncing it McEwan. Which is probably why the British Actress Geraldine McEwan changed her name from McKeown.

The name is often written as McKeon for the reasons stated already in this thread. There are a lot of McKeowns and McKeons in Ireland nowadays and if you come across a McKeon today, it is actually pronounced differently from McKeown. It is pronounced 'McKee'-'un'. But in the late 19th and early 20th century it was interchangeable because people relied on parsons or registrars.

I was told the name meant Son of John, with John possibly pronounced Yonn or Y-own, which makes sense to me.

[Lesley Robertson]

There aren't any fixed rules - so much depends on when and where, the local accent and the accents that the clerk/Minister were used to.
An example of geographical shift from my Scottish family (the problems are similar and this is one of the most obvious examples I have). In Aberdeenshire, there's a family called Kemlo(e). Go to the next county south (only about 50-100 miles) and the name is most often found as Kemley(ay)(ie). Go west by one county and it starts appearing as Gemlo(e) and then Gamlo(e).

There's also the fact that people didn't worry that much - I treasure a baptismal record where the family name is spelled 3 ways in one entry - Baldy, Baldie and Bawdy - for the child, father and grandfather!
The "son of John" comes from the gaelic version, MacEoin,

[Elwyn Soutter]

I agree with Lesley that the pronunciation varies a lot. I live in Co Antrim and the name is common here. Mostly it’d be pronounced “McYown or McYewn”. Emphasis in Irish and Scottish Gaelic (and consequently in local english dialects in Ireland) is normally on the first syllable of any word, whereas in England and elsewhere it’s often spread evenly across the word, or even on the last syllable. So that needs to be factored in too, as it accounts for the pronunciation changing when someone moves to another country..