Huguenot searches

[Copper]

This information may or may not be helpful -

Huguenot Exiles from Europe in England 1618-1688

Walloon Congregation of Canterbury - names of the Artisans, Strangers, Denisons & English

Jean Martin

Another section for the same place - English borne
Jean Martin

Sandwich 29 April 1622
Names of all the Strangers, House-holders, as well borne in the Towne, as elsewhere out of the Kings Dominions

Inhabitants of Sandwich - aliens borne
Peter Martine

Inhabitants of Sandwich - borne in Sandwich of Stranger parents

Peter Martine

[kathy15185]

Well, it sounds like I stimulated quite a discussion there! Thank you to everyone who has contributed so far and come up with suggestions and experiences. Good luck to those who have made headway, or who know for certain something about their Huguenot ancestry.

My reason for believing that my father's family originated in France lies in their name, and also the distribution of their name in 1881. The name is Sales, and there are three Sales villages in southern France. If you type Sales into the Surname Profiler for 1881, it shows a concentration in Kent, Sussex and Surrey. If you type Sale into it, the concentration is in Cheshire. Since a lot of Huguenots entered England via the Kent coast (and Sussex coast?), the Huguenot theory seems likely.

My suspicion is that there was more than just the one family that took on the name of Sales, given that in France it is a place name. Although I am leaving the study of Sales in Edenbridge and district and Westerham and district to other researchers with whom I have had contact, I am gathering data about other Sales in West Kent in general. It is a study that will take many years...

I have begun to search through the documents I have on CD from the Huguenot Society, and have found records with variants to the name, though no concrete links as yet. All of the places my ancestors' records appear in are in Kent. And I now need to find my 3x gt grandfather's baptism around 1791, rather than a very much earlier, and now not connected, ancestor around 1680. In fact, the search through the Huguenot documents has taken a back seat recently, as I try to catch up with entering parish register and census details into my database.

One problem, if you like, with my potential Huguenot family, is that there are no weavers. Most of them are ag labs, with a couple of rat catchers to add interest. Still I might find a different story WHEN I can get further back.

Kathy

[Copper]

I know how frustrating it is as I am struggling too.

I am sure that I read somewhere that Huguenots were educated people with trades. It doesn't mean that they were all weavers. If they were weavers in London and attended the French churches there, then that makes research much easier.

Some Huguenots fled to the Channel Islands and some fled to Ireland. In Ireland I think that some worked as weavers - Irish linen.

The search goes on - very slowy in my case.

[Ruth1]

Thanks for posting those Martin refs, Copper.

My books had arrived by the time I got home from work today so if I come across anything I think might be of interest to either Kathy or you, I'll add it to this thread.

[RichardE79]

Ruth

Was fascinated by your story, as it was so similar in many ways to my own.

I did some digging in the records, and found not only were our families stories similar, I think we may possibly even be related.

My ancestor Julien Bellenger came over around 1770, from St Georges-Des-Groisseluers, Lower Normandy, which is 6 miles away from St Honorine-la-Chardonne. (This was however his mothers village, his father Francois was born in Athis De L'orne, and his sister married and lived there, this is barely 1 mile from St Honorine-la-Chardonne, in fact the very next village to it)

Like your ancestor he bought with him to London a paper copy of his baptism dated 1770, though the actual year of the baptism was 1750. I believe it was usual for them to obtain this before fleeing, as it was the only real 'ID' you had in those days to prove who you were, important considering you were leaving behind all you ever had and all you ever knew from your previous life, most likely forever. Also the French churches in London in most circumstance required some form of 'proof' that newcommers really were who they said they were, genuine followers of the true faith, and not spies, as the French government did regulalry send undercover agents into the London French churches, and there was understandable paranioa towards newcommers as a result.

My ancestors baptism slip does actually state 'RPF' - protestant on it, which suprised me because as another poster rightly pointed out the RPF church was still very much outlawed at this time. I don't know whether a curate would mean yours were baptised Catholic, but have been looking through the same records I have used to trace my own ancestors in France, and yours are there too, and are definently RPF, so if they did do so, which is questionable, must have been at best for appearances only.

First definite record I can find of your ancestors in London is from 1775, but I do have reason to believe they were there before that, because on your baptism there is a reference to a Marie Marchand:

Margueritte Soucher, wife of Jacques Martin, presented us with a (son) boy who she said had been born to Charles Martin and Ann Colin, born on the previous day, who was baptised by us, the undersigned, Jebre, cure (priest) of this place and named Louis by Louis Jehanne (a Jehanne) accompanied by Marie Marchand who have declared – indecipherable


There is record of a Madelaine Marchand, aged 40, being admitted into the French Hospital London 1760, (where she was also die ten years later). Her two witnesses on admission are Charles Martin of the Parish of St Matthew Bethnal Green, Weaver and Lewis Collin of the Parish of Christ Church, Middlesex, also a Weaver.

I have also found some references to your family in some French sources, and there is a Lewis/Louis Collin, who married a Marie Martin in St Honorine-le-Chardonne 1751. Perhaps then he was a relation, and the Colline and Martin family came over together some time after this?

Originally, in London, they were members of the Artillery Church, Spitalfields, as were my Bellengers. Your Louis certainly had at least one brother Charles b.1750 circa., named after their father. He was married to Margeuritte Boheme/Bohana, and they had the following children baptised there:

Charles 1775
Marianne 1776
Jacob 1778
Ann 1781
Jarvais 1782
Thomas 1784


In 1786 the Artillery church closed down and it's 186 members joined the Threadneedle Street church, our ancestors gave Tesmoignages, testimonies of faith, in Threadneedle Street together at that time:

Julien Francois Jaques Bellanger and Elisabeth Mourgue [wife] 25 June 1786
Anne Bellenger of The Artillery Church 1786
Louis and Charles Martin of The Artillery Church 1786


The church, and French community in general, was in serious decline at this time, as you probably know most of the French refugees came over long before this 1680-1710, by this time 1780's/90's, most of them had married out into English families and particularly after the French Revolution started in 1789, and with the Napoleonic Wars between England and France soon after, most dropped any traces of their French heritage altogether. Hardly suprising, their were gangs of 'anti-french' mobs prowling the East End, so can't have been much fun for our ancestors, in contrast, relatively freshly arrived.

As a consequence, The Threadneedle church, once the busy hub of the community, was nothing like as crowded as it once had been, there were 25- 30 baptisms a year in 1790's, and maybe a dozen or so families regularly using the church, two of which were yours and mine, Martins and Bellengers, so I am sure they at very least knew eachother, coming over together from Artillery Church, probably quite well I'd say.

[RichardE79]

Oh forgot to say, about the possible relationship, Julien Bellengers great-grand son William John Clark Bellenger married a Caroline Martin in 1873, (my g-g-g grandparents). I traced her back to her grandfather (my 5x g
-grandfather) Thomas Martin born around 1795 (supposedly anyway) in Bethnal Green.

He was a silk weaver. Since they lived in a predominantly Huguenot area, followed a Huguenot trade, and married into a very strongly Huguenot family in the Bellengers, I reckon there is at least a possibility my Thomas was Huguenot too. Could he then be the son of Charles, born 1784 and therefore the nephew of your Louis? Maybe, maybe not, but the two families obviously knew eachother quite well and come from villages 1 mile apart in France, so must be a fair chance of it I reckon, never been able to pinpoint his birth anywhere so not impossible he may have given incorrect age on census's.

Also, as I say I have found some records of your Collins and Martins, on a French site, a personal family tree of a French geneaologist, and he also has some of my Bellengers as his ancestors too, so looks as if he is a distant cousin of both of us, and the two families were in any case related at least through marriage, in France, even if not related in England.

[Ruth1]

Richard- what you have to say is so interesting. Isn't it odd how suddenly connections suddenly appear out of the ether? I must direct my cousin, with whom I have been working on all this, to this thread and get her take on it too. I also need to digest your info more carefully.

I did consult a French national at work over the baptism record. They felt that although at the time the Protestant Church was not recognised, the members of that church would still refer to their religious leaders as 'priest' in any documentation and records they kept and that the use of the term 'cure' did not imply Roman Catholic worship.

Am going to print out what you have written and re-read.

I will be back!

[Ruth1]

Richard

I have sent you a PM, thinking that it would be easier to swap information by email.

[Ruth1]

Kathy

I have finished reading the Huguenot books I got. I can't say that they gave me a huge amount of help regarding specific questions but I did find the following passage which might be of interest to you, as you had concerns that your possible Huguenots were not weavers etc.

With reference to refugees in ports and towns in south-east England -'They were of all ranks and professions, including gentlemen, merchants, doctors, clergymen, students, schoolmasters, tradesmen, mechanics, artisans, shipwrights, mariners and labourers'. (Huguenot Ancestry - Currer-Briggs and Gambier) This sentence referred to the reign of Elizabeth 1st but that exhaustive list, appears to confirm that Huguenots could be ag labs just as much as they could have a skilled profession.

[kathy15185]

Ruth,

Thank you for that. I see I need not worry what occupations my ancestors had, but they could still have been Huguenots.

I restarted my search through the CDs I have from the Huguenot Society, and have come up with various people, not obviously related. I'm putting information that I find into a spreadsheet, as I can then rearrange the records according to date, record type (baptism, marriage, burial) or whatever. One interesting thing is that I found a Jacques Salé who was from Spain. Now, two of the the Sales villages in France lie south of Geneva, and so not very far from Spain. Could they have been settled originally by people with the name Sale or Sales from Spain? The plot thickens. More questions to be asked, and fewer answers!

Will keep digging, but probably after Christmas, unless I need some relaxation!

Kathy