Q re: NSW records

[steuer]

Hi everyone,
I am trying to find a marriage that occurred in about 1844 in Sydney for one of my lines. I have 3 seperate documents of Victorian origin (2 deaths, 1 a birth for the youngest child of the couple I am looking for) which state the marriage information. On the deaths the marriage date is about 1844, on the birth it's specifically dated 28 March 1850 which is closer to the birth of the first child but this document - the informant was someone I don't know of in the family, it was not either parent and the only person with the name that I have is their 10 year old daughter (now I don't think a registrar would allow a 10 year old girl to register the birth of her sibling alone??).

I am trying to find the marriage on the NSW BDM search engine, but not finding anything, and I was wondering if the NSW documents of the period may be like the VIC ones, where a lot of records for this period are missing or unregistered?

I don't have any other evidence of the family living in NSW, all children were born/all deaths were in VIC, shipping records indicate each parent arrived seperately in VIC, I can't find them in the shipping online indexes for NSW.

Anyone have any suggestions of what else I may try?

With warm regards,
Bridget.

[ChristineR]

Hi Bridget,

The birth certificate would be the most accurate as to the marriage date - sometimes the death ones just have a wild guess. If the informant is the same name as the 10 year daughter, then she is probably a family member - the relationship is usually recorded on the certificate.

BUT - unfortunately - they did lie sometimes to cover up the fact that they did not marry at all, else predate the marriage to be more respectable time prior to the first child.

An 1850 marriage would technically be in NSW as Victoria didn't really exist yet - I think the marriage for that date would appear in either or both BDM indexes, depending on what church they married in.

It could be worth getting another birth certificate, to see what information is given on it. (after 1st July 1853) If a different date and place is given again, then you can think it might not have happened when they said. I have one lady who always gave a different date - and once a different place - over a period of 20 years to cover up the fact that they married just before the birth of their second child!

ChristineR

[ChristineR]

And then again, you can post the names here, and we can see what we can do

ChristineR

[HelenVSmith]

Hi Bridget

It is probably worth posting named details as sometimes that gives clues as to what else might be searched.

Regards
Helen

[steuer]

Hiya Christine, thanks for the reply!

That's a good point, buying another birth certificate may be the way to go. I've just purchased 3 in two days so not so eager to do that again this week.

I've been over the VIC and NSW records with a fine tooth comb, but another pair of eyes may pick up something I may have missed. So, I am looking for the following family:

John WATKINS b. about 1819, County Cork, Ireland d. 9 March 1901 in Geelong West aged 76, buried 10 March 1901 in Euroa (this is one of the certificates I purchased, the informant was the undertaker's assistant in Geelong, it looks like with the family's permission, wife named as Julia THOMPSON, correct children, correct birthplace, marriage as Sydney, at age 25, lived 50 years in Vic.). He was a farmer. Have not found any definitive shipping record for John.

his wife:

Julia DESMOND (found it spelt various ways but most commonly DESMOND & DASMONT) b. about 1816 also from Cork, Ireland; d. 13 August 1902 in Euroa, Vic., aged 86, buried 14 August 1902 in Euroa. (This is the other one I purchased, informant was son, who stated she lived in NSW for 2 yrs, Vic. for 50, married John Watkins in NSW at age 24, 5 children correctly listed, correct birthplace). Julia was a servant. She came to Vic. on the ship alone, no parents or siblings with same surname, assisted immigration -
DESMOND, JULIA arrived -19 DEC 1839 ship- WESTMINSTER book 2 page 47

Children were:
1) Catherine b. 1851 at Seven Creeks, Euroa, no birth registered in Vic or NSW d. 1942 (my ancestor) she married Peter BEATON (purchased this marriage certificate nothing new on it).

2) George b. about 1854, cannot find his birth or death.

3) Mary b. 1857 in Euroa 1857/3049 she married Alexander Robert JOHNSTONE, haven't found her death yet.

4) John b. 1859 in Euroa 1859/21930, haven't found his death, he married Elizabeth ANSELL, informant on mother's death certificate.

5) Henry b. 1861 in Euroa 1861/10647 (purchased this)
Birthdate 9th May, 1861 in Euroa
Father John Watkins, aged 42, birthplace County Cork, Ireland
Mother Julia Desmond, aged 41, birthplace County Cork, Ireland
Parents married 28th March 1850 in Sydney, New South Wales

6) Missing?? No idea who this is as referred to on Henry's birth, no evildren correctly listed, correct birthplace). Julia was a servant. She came to Vic. on the ship alone, no parents or siblings with same surname, assisted immigration -
DESMOND, JULIA arrived -19 DEC 1839 ship- WESTMINSTER book 2 page 47

[ChristineR]

struck by the dreaded repeating text bug

good idea that, to put it in quotes!

I'll have a look.

cheers
ChristineR

[ChristineR]

I couldn't see anything, but didn't really expect to after you said you had been over the BDMs pretty well.

A few thoughts...
You will not find birth registrations for the early births, you will only find anything if there are surviving baptism records. Bear in mind that they might not have been baptised, or else done in a job lot at a later date which will not show up in BDMs - but might be in church records. At the time of their births, Euroa would probably not had any ministers let alone churches for quite some time. I have the same problem with nearby Avenel - children born and died that have no record and not mentioned on the mother's death - but are counted on births, and again counted on a second marriage so I have no doubt there were three other children who died in the very early days.

It is good that it says in 1861 that none of the children are deceased. The mystery one probably died later, as an infant, which is why he/she hasn't been mentioned on the parent's death certs. Pity you didn't have later births where the ages and names are recorded.

cheers
Christine

[ChristineR]

John b. 1859 in Euroa 1859/21930, haven't found his death

Digger - Death Index. Victoria 1921-1985
WATKINS Jno
Father: Watkins Jno
Mother: Julia UNKNOWN
Death Place: EUROA
Age: 79
Year: 1937
Reg Number: 18085

found something

his wife Elizabeth died 1931, reg Euroa, 4955
aged 73 (Thomas ANSELL, Elizabeth MILLWOOD)

[steuer]

Good morning,
thank you Christine, I appreciate it - thank you for finding the death of son John, can't believe I missed it! |

I forgot to say, on the father John's dc it said he was a "Gentleman" what does that mean exactly??

My main concern at the moment is working out the parents marriage in the hope of finding out something about how they came to Australia and their parentage, because both dc's stated parents unknown. Which was my main reason for the original question whether or not there are NSW records missing/unregistered in the same fashion as what happened in Victoria for the same period. Otherwise I will be on a wild goose-chase without much hope trying to work out the family in Ireland (slim hope I know).

If Julia Desmond came out in 1839, that's before the Irish Famine orphans were shipped out here - I've already tried looking for her in those lists. I'm hoping she is not another orphan on my line from Ireland, to add to my other 3 girls. *sigh* It would be nice to have an EASY *cough* line to work on for once. | I found another person online named Sally Ann Currie who is researching the same line, but all her email addresses where she listed her interests are dead.

Oh well, will keep plodding along. Thanks for your help, Christine and Helen.

Regards,
Bridget.

[ChristineR]

A "gentleman" is one who didn't have to work, had income.

Sometimes you can fluke finding a sibling who married later on and work back from there.

cheers
Christine