CLARKE FAMILY OF BRIDGEND/NEATH AREA

[Pam Downes]

England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations), 1858-1966, 1973-1995

Clarke Sarah Beatrice of 1 Beach Street Aberavon Glamorganshire (wife of George Clarke) died 20th February 1935. Administration Landaff 20 May to the said George Clarke butcher. Effects £790

Christina

Thank you for going above and beyond in typing out all the details, Christina.
I had given Jill the link to the Probate Calendar in post 11, but when I tried the site earlier it wasn't working, so it wouldn't have been helpful to have referred her to it at that time.

Pam

[Pam Downes]

PAM

"You should be able to find Tryphena's birth registration on at least FreeBMD (possibly the GRO's Historical births) and see if her mother's maiden name is other than Rogers. If it's different then it's possible that Tryphena's father died while she was young and she simply didn't know his name rather than not knowing his name because she was illegitimate"

Thanks PAM I didn't know you replied. I will have to leave what you suggest as I don't in fact understand what I have to try to do - so sorry! I have tried Free BMD.

FreeBMD is not yet complete. Even if it says the entries for a particular year are 100% there could still be some pages yet to be entered into the database. That's why if you can't find an entry on FreeBMD you should always check the full GRO Index on either FMP or Ancestry. But to do that you need a sub. So the alternative for what the GRO class as 'historical births and deaths' (1837 -1917 for births, 1837-1957 for deaths) is to check for them on the free GRO site.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
You just have to register - though if you've ordered certificates from the GRO recently you already have log in details. The advantage with that site is that ages at death are recorded from 1837 (doesn't start until 1866 on the GRO Index on FreeBMD, FMP, and Ancestry, as are mother's maiden names from 1837 (doesn't start until September quarter1911), and middle names(you only get initials from about 1911 in the 'old' GRO Index).
See my reply to Peter for a little more explanation about why you couldn't find Tryphena on FreeBMD.

The Death I thought might be GEORGE CLARKE Neath 1947 Sept Q isn't in fact him.

And your proof is?

This may be Tryphena:
Elizabeth Triphena ROGERS b. 1917 M Qtr Bridgend 11A 1611 mother's maiden name EVANS
Peter

A gold star for Peter.

This is why you couldn't find Tryphena on FreeBMD, Jill.
Not only are her names transposed, but Tryphena is spelt with an I instead of a Y.
When you're fairly certain that a name should be there you have to do a bit of thinking outside the box. Changing the order of names, and using * instead of a particular letter are two things to try.
If 'using *' baffles you, then (as an example) when searching for Elizabeth the name sis sometimes spelt Elisabeth, so type Eli*abeth and the system will find both spellings.

Pam

[gilian rowland]

I turned this on to thank ELSINORE so much for his posting No 58 and have just seen the postings since then. For some reason I don't receive notification of all posts.

PETER Thanks so much for the possible entry for birth of Tryphena. Believe you me I did try this last weekend with what I thought was all combinations of her name but obviously overlooked reversing her Christian names - I am working on your wonderful info.I am also trying in my feeble way to find out about one of the witnesses Gladys Rogers.ie what relation is she to Tryphena.

PAM You asked what proof I have that the possible death for GEORGE CLARKE Neath 1947 I found - the Registrar office informed me that they "have no trace of that entry" so I have asked them to double check.


CHRISTINA Last but not least very many thanks for Probate for Sarah Beatrice Clarke which is a wonderful find. I used dates from 1934-1936 and found various pages but not that entry.

You also pointed out info on marriage certs as I said she was born in Wales from the marriage cert but I meant that Peter had given
me info for her possible birth so asked me to find out "if on the marriage cert
her Father is Richard, a miner, mother Sarah nee Rees. and age c22." and the Registrar confirmed those details.
with thanks
Jill

[elsinore]

PAM You asked what proof I have that the possible death for GEORGE CLARKE Neath 1947 I found - the Registrar office informed me that they "have no trace of that entry" so I have asked them to double check.

Did you ask them to look for CLARKE or CLARK?

The hint Pam gave you in her #35 was for CLARK.

Peter

[Pam Downes]

Did you ask them to look for CLARKE or CLARK?

The hint Pam gave you in her #35 was for CLARK.

Peter

You beat me to replying by by about five minutes, Peter.

Jill - errors do occur in reporting entries between the local registrar's office and the GRO but when you are first checking you must make sure that you are asking for a check with the precise details as recorded in the GRO Index. So in this instance with no 'e' on the end of Clark.

[gilian rowland]

ELSINORE and PAM

Thanks so much for pointing out that I should have asked for Clark without an E - I wait to hear further from them.

Did you ask them to look for CLARKE or CLARK?

The hint Pam gave you in her #35 was for CLARK.

PAM errors do occur in reporting entries between the local registrar's office and the GRO but when you are first checking you must make sure that you are asking for a check with the *precise* details as recorded in the GRO Index. So in this instance with no 'e' on the end of Clark.

PETER
You recently posted:

"This may be Tryphena:

Elizabeth Triphena ROGERS b. 1917 M Qtr Bridgend 11A 1611 mother's maiden name EVANS"

I have just heard that it is correct! Born 29.12.1916 mmn Evans Pyle area Bridgend. I forgot to ask if the Father is named but have now asked.
So that is the name she is registered at Birth but married as Tryphena Elizabeth Rogers.

I think I have however managed to get one thing correct! You recall that William Clarke's second marriage was to Gertrude Eliza Hunt/Lomax and I was given Father Uriah Hunt. However the marriage cert 1937 showed her father as Henry Hunt, Farmer, deceased.
During the free Anc access over Easter I did manage to get copies of census returns for her which are now for the wrong person but I noticed
on the 1911 census she is a Boarder in Newport (lodging house I assume) and states Born MONMOUTH ie you found two Hunt births in 1880
one in Cardiff and one in Monmouth.

Gertrude Eliza HUNT b. 1880 Cardiff Q2 11A 253 mmn WILLIAMS
Gertrude Eliza HUNT b. 1880 Monmouth Q3 11A 38 mmn PRICE

It's confirmed that yes they "do hold a birth record for a Gertrude Eliza Hunt born in 1880 in Monmouth, father Henry Hunt "
but they haven't mentioned if mmn was Price - so wait to hear.

I found as i said, on Free BMD possible birth for Gladys Rogers June 1909 Neath who was a Witness on Tryphena's marriage certificate. so when you refer
to I must ask for a check with correct GRO info is that where you get mmn from? I looked at the GRO link PAM gave me and waded through it but in the end
couldn't see how to look an entry up!

with thanks
Jill

[Pam Downes]

I

I looked at the GRO link PAM gave me and waded through it but in the end couldn't see how to look an entry up!

with thanks
Jill

Jill, did you click on the link which says 'Search the historical births and deaths index and order certificates'?
If so, I fail to understand how you couldn't look up an entry. It's simply a case of filling in names, selecting a sex, then a year +/- 2 years either side, and pressing submit. There's nothing to 'wade through'.

See post number 62 about tihe years where you find the mother's maiden name on either the Historical births index and the 'original' GRO Index and FreeBMD.

Without wishing to sound unkind, if you can't do simple look-ups on sites such as the GRO historical site and FreeBMD, how can you help someone as you claimed you were doing earlier in the thread?

Pam

[gilian rowland]

Jill, did you click on the link which says 'Search the historical births and deaths index and order certificates'?


**** Yes I did and a list of info comes up. I meant I am unablel to find a blank box to type in info.

Forget it I will drop the matter. I am trying my best with this work.


If so, I fail to understand how you couldn't look up an entry. It's simply a case of filling in names, selecting a sex, then a year +/- 2 years either side, and pressing submit. There's nothing to 'wade through'.

See post number 62 about tihe years where you find the mother's maiden name on either the Historical births index and the 'original' GRO Index and FreeBMD.

Without wishing to sound unkind, if you can't do simple look-ups on sites such as the GRO historical site and FreeBMD, how can you help someone as you claimed you were doing earlier in the thread?

**** I refrain from commenting on your last para.

[Pam Downes]

I looked at the GRO link PAM gave me and waded through it but in the end
couldn't see how to look an entry up!

with thanks
Jill

Ah, I've just checked the link (s).
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
then you click on 'search historical etc' which takes you to this page where you have to log in with your email addy and a password.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/c...ates/Login.asp

After you've logged in you then get
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/c...cates/menu.asp
Is this where you get lost?
The first link says 'search the GRO Indexes' so that should be the obvious one to click, which leads to
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/c...xes_search.asp
and then you select which of births or deaths you want to search.
Then you get the boxes for names, years, etc.

When you get the results, to the right-hand side of the entry are links to ordering either a certified copy of the certificate (for £9.25) or a PDF copy for six quid. It's a doddle because all the references are filled in for you - basically all you have to do us type in your card number. Comes as a shock when you want a marriage certificate and have to find the references first and then type everything in.

Pam

[gilian rowland]

Thanks PAM for the info on the GRO link - in fact I have just used it to hopefully conclude one loose end.

There were two possible births for GERTRUDE ELIZA HUNT in 1880 one in Cardiff and one in Monmouth. On receipt of the marriage certificate it confirmed her Father as Henry Hunt, Farmer, not the Cardiff person and also I had noticed on a census return 1911 she gives born Monmouth. ELSINORE found info and asked if her mmn was PRICE. So I just used it and yes it confirms mmn PRICE. I then got carried away and possibly found her parents' marriage in 1874 Gloucester Henry Hunt to Sophia Letitia Price! I'd like to find census returns for Gertrude from birth onwards ie she should be in the 1881 but I'm not a member of Ancestry.I heve the 1911 when she is working in Newport.

Another loose end was the death of GEORGE CLARKE. and the possible death I found for 1947 which I was told they had no trace of but it was pointed out to me that I should have asked for CLARK. I thought I would get confirmation of his death before finding Probate so then found Probate (in name of Clarke) and with exact date of his death it was then confirmed he did indeed die in 1947 Reg Clark.

However what I am very pleased about is that I have now found out details for William Benjamin's wife. Her Birth is registered as Elizabeth Triphena Rogers and her marriage as Tryphena Elizabeth Rogers from the marriage certificate I got. On that her Father is blank so I "assumed" from what I have read that she did not know her Father., or rather her mother didn't. ELSINORE suggested I see if her mmn was EVANS. I tried FreeBMD for Evans but took fright at the sheer numbers so thought I'd try ROGERS and found the following, all of which took place in Bridgend.

Marriage of her parents William G Rogers to Gladys E Evans (Gladys being a Witness on her daughter's marriage certificate) June 1916 Q2
Death of William G Rogers September 1927 Q3 which possibly explains why he was not on the marriage cert as he had died prior to the marriage.
Birth of mother Gladys Evelyn Evans Q4 1896

Further I was told that William B Clark and Tryphena had a child who I believe I also traced but both may still be alive.

So very many thanks to everyone for the input which has helped enormously. It's been a learning curve for me but hopefully got there in the end.Jill