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  1. #131
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    Just back on the previous post for a moment, don't know if it's thrown out any by William being in jail in 1851 in Hereford?

    Just had this interesting message from my friend in France. Would love to know what you make of this. I did explain however that for this to work then surely the Richard referred to below must be a Son of Thomas & Jane to explain Marth's nephew comment re Thomas the butcher in 1851. But I cannot see such a baptism.

    Now to throw another spanner in the works, I may have another possibilty for Thomas Gough the butcher. He can't be a son of Jane (who would have been over 50) and, given that Thomas & Jane appear to have remained together until he died, the idea of Thomas having a late illegitimate child (or even two!) who took his name seems to me not very likely.

    My first thought was that Fanny and/or Thomas could be children of John & Jane's eldest son Thomas (1795) who could well have become a tailor at Hereford. But I can find no evidence for this (do you know what happened to him?).

    Another thought was that one of Thomas & Jane's daughters could have had an illegitimate daughter (Fanny) who could have been brought up by her grandparents as one of theirs (this happened in my family), but no sign of any such a baptism.

    So I looked for any plausible baptism around 1818 (date of birth uncertain) of Thomas in or near Hereford and found just one:
    Thomas son of Richard & Elizabeth GOUGH bapt Herefordshire 21 Oct 1821.
    Exploring this idea further proved interesting. It appears that Richard & Elizabeth married at St Alkmunds, Shrewsbury in 1798 and baptised 4 children (all died infants) there before moving to Clun, where Richard was a master butcher who took on two apprentices and had two more children. They them moved to Herefordshire where they had 7 more children between 1809 & 1825. All the Herefordshire baptisms come from the IRI which unfortunately gives neither the parish nor the father's occupation (which should be recorded in the post 1813 baptisms), so would need to be checked with the register. Any wqy you can get someone to do that?

    In summary:
    1 Oct 1798 at Shrewsbury: Richard GOUGH bachelor x Elizabeth TAYLOR spinster, at St Alkmund, both otp.
    In 1803 & 1805: Richard GOUGH master butcher at Clun took on apprentices John HOWELLS & Thomas HOWELLS
    - John & Richard sons of Richard & Elizabeth GOUGH born 11 Sep 1799, bapt at Shrewsbury St Alkmund 12 Jan 1800 (FMP image)
    John GOUGH infant buried St Alkmund 1 Feb 1800
    John GOUGH age 5 months buried 28 Feb 1800
    - John son of Richard & Elizabeth GOUGH born 7 Feb & bapt at Shrewsbury St Alkmund 11 Feb 1801 (FMP image);
    - Richard son of Richard & Elizabeth GOUGH born 23 Feb & bapt at Shrewsbury St Alkmund 29 Dec 1802 (FMP image)
    - William son of Richard & Elizabeth GOUGH bapt at Clun 10 Nov 1805 (FMP image)
    - Anne dau of Richard & Elizabeth GOUGH bapt at Clun 15 Apr 1808 (FMP image)
    - Mary Ann dau of Richard & Elizabeth GOUGH bapt Herefordshire 30 July 1809 (IRI)
    - Richard son of Richard & Elizabeth GOUGH bapt Herefordshire 08 Aug 1813 (IRI)
    - William son of Richard & Elizabeth GOUGH bapt Herefordshire 19 Nov 1815 (IRI)
    - John son of Richard & Elizabeth GOUGH bapt Herefordshire 10/18? Jan 1818 (IRI)
    - Elizabeth dau of Richard & Elizabeth GOUGH bapt Herefordshire 21 Oct 1821 (IRI)
    - Thomas son of Richard & Elizabeth GOUGH bapt Herefordshire 21 Oct 1821 (IRI)
    - Catherine dau of Richard & Elizabeth GOUGH bapt Herefordshire 25 Dec 1825 (IRI)

  2. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr_edd View Post
    Just back on the previous post for a moment, don't know if it's thrown out any by William being in jail in 1851 in Hereford?

    Just had this interesting message from my friend in France. Would love to know what you make of this. I did explain however that for this to work then surely the Richard referred to below must be a Son of Thomas & Jane to explain Marth's nephew comment re Thomas the butcher in 1851. But I cannot see such a baptism.

    Now to throw another spanner in the works, I may have another possibilty for Thomas Gough the butcher. He can't be a son of Jane (who would have been over 50) and, given that Thomas & Jane appear to have remained together until he died, the idea of Thomas having a late illegitimate child (or even two!) who took his name seems to me not very likely.

    My first thought was that Fanny and/or Thomas could be children of John & Jane's eldest son Thomas (1795) who could well have become a tailor at Hereford. But I can find no evidence for this (do you know what happened to him?).

    Another thought was that one of Thomas & Jane's daughters could have had an illegitimate daughter (Fanny) who could have been brought up by her grandparents as one of theirs (this happened in my family), but no sign of any such a baptism.

    So I looked for any plausible baptism around 1818 (date of birth uncertain) of Thomas in or near Hereford and found just one:
    Thomas son of Richard & Elizabeth GOUGH bapt Herefordshire 21 Oct 1821.
    Exploring this idea further proved interesting. It appears that Richard & Elizabeth married at St Alkmunds, Shrewsbury in 1798 and baptised 4 children (all died infants) there before moving to Clun, where Richard was a master butcher who took on two apprentices and had two more children. They them moved to Herefordshire where they had 7 more children between 1809 & 1825. All the Herefordshire baptisms come from the IRI which unfortunately gives neither the parish nor the father's occupation (which should be recorded in the post 1813 baptisms), so would need to be checked with the register. Any wqy you can get someone to do that?

    In summary:
    1 Oct 1798 at Shrewsbury: Richard GOUGH bachelor x Elizabeth TAYLOR spinster, at St Alkmund, both otp.
    In 1803 & 1805: Richard GOUGH master butcher at Clun took on apprentices John HOWELLS & Thomas HOWELLS
    - John & Richard sons of Richard & Elizabeth GOUGH born 11 Sep 1799, bapt at Shrewsbury St Alkmund 12 Jan 1800 (FMP image)
    John GOUGH infant buried St Alkmund 1 Feb 1800
    John GOUGH age 5 months buried 28 Feb 1800
    - John son of Richard & Elizabeth GOUGH born 7 Feb & bapt at Shrewsbury St Alkmund 11 Feb 1801 (FMP image);
    - Richard son of Richard & Elizabeth GOUGH born 23 Feb & bapt at Shrewsbury St Alkmund 29 Dec 1802 (FMP image)
    - William son of Richard & Elizabeth GOUGH bapt at Clun 10 Nov 1805 (FMP image)
    - Anne dau of Richard & Elizabeth GOUGH bapt at Clun 15 Apr 1808 (FMP image)
    - Mary Ann dau of Richard & Elizabeth GOUGH bapt Herefordshire 30 July 1809 (IRI)
    - Richard son of Richard & Elizabeth GOUGH bapt Herefordshire 08 Aug 1813 (IRI)
    - William son of Richard & Elizabeth GOUGH bapt Herefordshire 19 Nov 1815 (IRI)
    - John son of Richard & Elizabeth GOUGH bapt Herefordshire 10/18? Jan 1818 (IRI)
    - Elizabeth dau of Richard & Elizabeth GOUGH bapt Herefordshire 21 Oct 1821 (IRI)
    - Thomas son of Richard & Elizabeth GOUGH bapt Herefordshire 21 Oct 1821 (IRI)
    - Catherine dau of Richard & Elizabeth GOUGH bapt Herefordshire 25 Dec 1825 (IRI)
    I haven't checked them all, but most of the baptisms listed at the end of this post as Herefordshire are available on FMP in their Shropshire Baptisms record set. Carefully note occupations.
    Catherine's baptism is 1823, not 1825.
    I don't know which parishes are covered in that record set, but if you scroll down the opening page you should see further information links you can expand.
    There is also a 'Shropshire Parish registers browse 1538-1900' which enables you to see exactly which registers on online for which parishes and which dates.

    FMP also have Herefordshire baptisms, marriages, and burials, and most likely a similar parish registers browse record set, too.
    Vulcan XH558 - “Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.”

  3. #133
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    Thank you for this Pam.

  4. #134
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    https://herefordcitycouncil.gov.uk/history/past-mayors/

    Jomot / Griesel

    Just heard back from Nigel Edwards re Thomas Tyndale Gough, interestingly his Son Jonathan Elliot Gough was Lord Mayor of Hereford.

    1828
    1836
    1837

    So having his first stint as Mayor around the same time that Thomas Gough the tailor was in the Mayors office & Sargent at mace.

  5. #135
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    Sorry, youve lost me in places here & I'm not entirely sure what your theory is regarding the children of Richard & Elizabeth?

    Re the William who married Ann & lived in Clun This is them in 1841 at Wern Acton, Clun:
    William Gough 40 Farmer (Goughf on FmP)
    Ann Gough 30
    William Gough 11
    Ann Gough 9
    Richard Gough 6
    Thomas Gough 4
    Martha Gough 1

    All born in County

    But we had identified this as being William in 1841, at Bye Street, Hereford:
    Jane Gough 70
    William Gough 35
    Both born in county

  6. #136
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    I also think you need to type out the information from the documents you obtained and explain where they do and don't fit in with our theories so far.

    For example we'd decided that Thomas Gough Jr (born 1795) was a fisherman, but the 1821 marriage to Eleanor Brewer says 'Sherriff's Officer' which completely threw me, especially as Jane Gough was a witness. However, by the time son William was baptised in 1824 (s/o Thomas & Ellen Gough) he IS a fisherman, so some of it fits with the theory so far and some of it doesn't.

    You also don't seem to have the burial for Fanny aged 7, which may or may not have been helpful.

    It seems very odd to me though that Fanny and Jane would both say Thomas Gough TAILOR if he was a bailiff / sheriff's officer / Sergeant at Mace etc for all those years - surely you'd use one of those occupations to describe him?

  7. #137
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    Subscribers to this thread will no doubt receive a post from me about the burial of Jane Gough in 1843, which was in reply to post #30 from Jomot1.
    Please ignore my post. More information about Jane was found in post #64 (also from Jomot1) which makes my waffle irrelevant.
    Vulcan XH558 - “Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.”

  8. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jomot1 View Post
    I also think you need to type out the information from the documents you obtained and explain where they do and don't fit in with our theories so far.

    For example we'd decided that Thomas Gough Jr (born 1795) was a fisherman, but the 1821 marriage to Eleanor Brewer says 'Sherriff's Officer' which completely threw me, especially as Jane Gough was a witness. However, by the time son William was baptised in 1824 (s/o Thomas & Ellen Gough) he IS a fisherman, so some of it fits with the theory so far and some of it doesn't.

    You also don't seem to have the burial for Fanny aged 7, which may or may not have been helpful.

    It seems very odd to me though that Fanny and Jane would both say Thomas Gough TAILOR if he was a bailiff / sheriff's officer / Sergeant at Mace etc for all those years - surely you'd use one of those occupations to describe him?
    That is very interesting that Thomas who married Eleanor was a Sheriff's Officer. It seems likely he is Thomas the tailor's son, though I wonder if there are any alternative Thomases around.

    In post 81 Jomot gives a ref for a possible death cert for Thomas Gough the fisherman. Might be worth checking.

    Also re change of career. I'm thinking that if someone trained as a tailor and became a master, then they might well identify as that even if they had another occupation subsequently.
    In post 101 I mentioned William Brace, also a mayor's sergeant, who was described as a shoemaker in the 1841 census. (if I have the correct man.)

  9. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by grisel View Post
    Also re change of career. I'm thinking that if someone trained as a tailor and became a master, then they might well identify as that even if they had another occupation subsequently.
    This is very true. My Dad was one of the thousands of steelworkers who lost their jobs in the late 1970s / early 1980s, and although he later found work with the DSS (as was) he always considered himself a steel worker and so that's what I put on his death certificate.

  10. #140

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    In view of its title, I have moved this thread to the Brickwalls forum. When it eventually moves into the archives, it will be more easily found here.

    The "Navigating" forum is supposed to be a sort of handbook on getting around the forum.

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