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  1. #101
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    One thought - it could be possible that Jane Gough nee Porter is a little younger than the age we have. The 1794 marriage was by licence and one possible reason for that is when one of the parties is under age. So if Jane was in her forties rather than fifties it is just about possible that she gave birth to Fanny after the death of Frances in 1820. That said, they baptised all of the other children so it would be surprising not to have baptised Fanny also.

    Also re Thomas the tailor's change of career. I looked at William Brace who was mentioned in newspaper reports with Thomas Gough, also a sergeant and a mayor's porter. However if I have the correct person he is a shoemaker in the 1841 census. So I think Thomas could also have been both a tailor and a bailiff.

  2. #102
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    I still think that Thomas the Butcher who was listed as a nephew in 1851 may hold the key to this.

    If we assume that his death certificate and the 1841 census were reasonably correct as to his age, then he was born c1818/19, and if the relationship of Nephew to Martha is correct then one of Martha's siblings was his parent.

    We haven't found a definite baptism for him, or for Frances/Fanny, but if Fanny really was born c1822, then she was only a couple of years younger than Thomas - could they have been siblings?

    This would fit with the theory that she was an illegitimate grand-daughter of Thomas the Tailor, and given the YoB of Thomas the Butcher then we're probably looking at one of the children born 1803 or earlier:

    Thomas 1795
    Ann 1796
    Elizabeth 1798
    William 1801
    Mary Jane 1803

    (I've excluded Martha 1799 on that basis that she was described as Thomas's aunt, not mother, although of course this could be untrue!)

    Thomas 1795 we know about, and also Mary Jane 1803, but what happened to the others? From memory, Fanny gave birth to two daughters, one named Fanny after herself, and the other named Ann - could this be a clue?

  3. #103
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    I agree Jomot, that Fanny and Thomas are very likely illegitimate grandchildren of Thomas the tailor and very possibly siblings.
    I had been trying to follow the daughters Ann and Elizabeth but with no success so far. I didn't find any burials. If I remember correctly there were a a few possible marriages for Elizabeth.

  4. #104
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    I was looking at the 1823 marriage in Shrewsbury between Ann Gough & Thomas Forester, but that's as far as I've managed to get. I don't see them locally after that.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jomot1 View Post
    I was looking at the 1823 marriage in Shrewsbury between Ann Gough & Thomas Forester, but that's as far as I've managed to get. I don't see them locally after that.
    There is an 1834 marriage Shrewsbury of an Ann Forester widow to an Edward Jeffreys which could be worth looking at

  6. #106
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    Yeah, I'd been looking at that but I'm not convinced.

    She was buried 27 Aug 1847, aged 56 and the widow of Edward Jeffreys, Roushill. In 1841 she's at Roushill, aged 50 and a sempstress (sic) born Shropshire. No husband with her.

    These would give a YoB/PoB of approx 1791, Shropshire whereas 'our' Ann was born c1796, Herefordshire.

  7. #107
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    Hi Jomot & Griesel

    I just thought I would pop on to view your latest musings which I very much look forwards to reading.

    I have recovered somewhat from a hectic few days but still knee deep playing catch up in work related matters & I hope to get all the scans added to my Ancestry tree by over the weekend.

    Looking at your thoughts I also wondered if Thomas the Butcher & Fanny were brother & sister.

    For record Fanny's daughters were;

    Fanny & Ann both with Edward Wheeler, no daughters with William Ellis.

    I agree also that it's likely to be an earlier sibling 1803 backwards given the approximate birth years of Fanny & Thomas the butcher (if we are including him as a possible brother to Fanny)

    Can I ask why you consider Fanny to be an illegitimate daughter of one of the sisters & not considering one of the Sons? is it just more likely that the baby would be brought up by a Woman than I man? might be a silly question I know they did not have such things as SMA back then but I am guessing they might of just feed them on Cows milk!

    I wonder if their is any merit in trying to work out which siblings were likely to be Shropshire at the time of Fanny's (and or Thomas's) birth & which were more likely to still be in Hereford?

    I googled how long it would take someone to get around at that time & 50 miles by horse & cart / carriage was about 12 hours so I think once you moved, you moved!

    On this basis I think Sarah could be ruled out.

    Thoughts please.

    Regards
    Ed

  8. #108
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    Hi Ed, I feel for you - I got fed up with that pesky thing called work a few years ago and haven't looked back since!

    It would have been virtually unheard of for an unmarried, labouring-class man to raise his illegitimate child, unless he and the mother were also living together as man and wife. Society simply didn't work that way, and to be honest it would still be very unusual even today.

    Apart from anything else, a man would have had no option but to work - far longer hours than we do today and with no weekends off - which would have made it impossible. This is why you often see widowers with young children marrying again very quickly after the death of their first wife - sheer practicality!

    People were more mobile than perhaps we think, and going 'home' to give birth would not have been unusual, so rather than trying to work out who was still in Hereford and who wasn't, I think you need to try and trace as many of the siblings as you can - male and female - because you never know what else you might find along the way.

  9. #109
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    Hi Jomot & Griesel

    Well you right again. Just bought the death cert.

    23rd March 1860 Salop Infirmary, Saint Mary, Shrewsbury

    Thomas Gough Male 42 years Butcher Journeyman from Butcher Row.

    Epilepsy John Rees present at the death.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr_edd View Post
    Hi Jomot & Griesel

    Well you right again. Just bought the death cert.

    23rd March 1860 Salop Infirmary, Saint Mary, Shrewsbury

    Thomas Gough Male 42 years Butcher Journeyman from Butcher Row.

    Epilepsy John Rees present at the death.
    What a shame he didn't marry and have descendants!

    Re the daughters of Thomas the tailor- we don't yet have info for Ann or Elizabeth, but Sarah didn't marry till 1829 and (Mary) Jane 1830 so either of those could be candidates for mother of Fanny and/or Thomas.

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