George (Isaac) Burnand - in a muddle

[fumblina]

I've got myself in a pickle with this gentleman when it started off so nicely.

I've got 3 census records 1851-71 and all give him as a coach painter from Harrogate and I have various child baptisms that support his occupation and some of the child census records but that is as far as I can get with any certainty.

The only baptism for him I can find is for 1818 in St Pancras with parents John and Elizabeth, and gives a birth date in 1812 which could be when the parents moved to London and the rest of his records are London based. I can't find any birth record in Harrogate.

1851 Census
* year of birth of 1814
* living with his mother Mary (born in York)
* living with wife Elizabeth (32) from Cornwall
* 3 children George 13, Charles 8 & Sarah 3 (all born St Pancras)

1850
* daughter Grace born Clerkenwell(married name Hellis)

24 May 1852
* son Oswald born Marylebone

13 Sep 1852
* wedding George & Eliza Watson

1856
* daughter Amy born Islington(died 1858) gives Watson as mothers maiden name
* Amy & Oswald Christened St Pancras - Names Eliza and George (coach painter)

1861 Census
* year of birth 1819
* living with wife Eliza (32) from South Mimms
* 3 different children - Grace 11, Oswald 7 & Louis 1 Marylebone

1871
* year of birth 1817
* living with wife Eliza (34) South Mimms

1873
* Grace Watson marries Edwin Hellis - George Isaac Coach painter is father
- Graces YOB matches that on 1939 register with married name

On one hand it looks like two separate families with a similar mother's name (vastly differing ages and different places of birth) but on the other hand it seems really unlikely that there would be two George Burnands from Harrogate who were coach painters born in the same decade living close to each other in N London.

There is the possibility he had two families (overlap between birth of 1st child with Eliza and 1851 census with Elizabeth) but I can't find any later census records for the earlier family, or a marriage or death record for Elizabeth, nor a 1851 census record for Eliza and Grace.

Can anyone unravel this and judge what is the most likely thing to have happened?
It is so frustrating that there is so much information but not enough to actually know what was going on!
Thank you.

[Pam Downes]

but on the other hand it seems really unlikely that there would be two George Burnands from Harrogate who were coach painters born in the same decade living close to each other in N London.

I really should have kept a note of the thread but many years ago I remember there was one family - say, John and Mary Brown, with children William, Elizabeth, and Francis - being investigated by a forum member.
When I checked the census I found two families, same names, same occupation for John, same birthplaces, ages might have differed by a year or two between two censuses (though that often happens) and in nearby parts of London.

The two Georges may well be cousins. A senior George has two sons, and when they in turn have sons, they both call their sons George. Result - two Georges, both born same/nearby town, within a year or two of each other. One goes to London; writes home and says there's plenty of work going, come and join me. Within a couple of years the second George is also in London.

Haven't yet looked at any of the details you've given.

[Pam Downes]

Can you give the census references? It could be because I'm looking on FMP and their transcriptions are different to Ancestry, but I'm having trouble finding George and family on any of the censuses.

[christanel]

1851 - Piece 1493 Folio 590 Page 19 born Harrogate
1861 says he was born Hanogate York name transcribed on ancestry and FMP as Burnard Piece 101 Folio 139 page 54
1871 Piece 150 Folio 10 Page 14

Got to leave it
Chris

[christanel]

London, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1938
Parish register.
George Burnand full age, coach painter
Marriage Date: 13 Sep 1852
Marriage Place: St Marylebone, Westminster, England
Father: Charles Burnand Coach maker, deceased.
Spouse: Eliza Watson, full age. father John Watson Currier deceased.
Witnesses Edward? Speller? and Mary Anne Burnand
all four signed their names

1873
* Grace Watson marries Edwin Hellis - George Isaac Coach painter is father
- Graces YOB matches that on 1939 register with married name.

Watson is Eliza's maiden name as shown on the GRO index for Oswald's birth.

Christina

[christanel]

GRO birth registration
Grace Watson March 1/4 1850 St James Clerkenwell vol 3 page 132. No mother's maiden name recorded which indicates an illegitimate birth.
Christina

[christanel]

Eliza age 22 and Grace Watson age 1, are with Naomi Watson, widow, mother of Eliza, in 1851. Piece 1518, folio 319 page 61
Christina

[Jomot1]

London, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1938
Parish register.
George Burnand full age, coach painter
Marriage Date: 13 Sep 1852
Marriage Place: St Marylebone, Westminster, England
Father: Charles Burnand Coach maker, deceased.
Spouse: Eliza Watson, full age. father John Watson Currier deceased.
Witnesses Edward? Speller? and Mary Anne Burnand
all four signed their names

The marriage also states that George is a bachelor.

A possible for the witness Mary Ann in 1841 at James Street, St Pancras:
Mary Barnand (or Barnard)45 Shoe Binder
Mary Ann 13
James 8

Both children born in county, but mother Mary was not.

Mary possibly admitted to the workhouse in 1863 (Camden/St Pancras)

[christanel]

Free Reg has 16 results for the baptism of a George, no surname, Yorkshire West Riding, Harrogate 1805 - 1821. None of them have a surname anything like Burnand. Of course he may have been illegitimate also and baptised in his mother's maiden name
Christina

[fumblina]

I really should have kept a note of the thread but many years ago I remember there was one family - say, John and Mary Brown, with children William, Elizabeth, and Francis - being investigated by a forum member.
When I checked the census I found two families, same names, same occupation for John, same birthplaces, ages might have differed by a year or two between two censuses (though that often happens) and in nearby parts of London.

The two Georges may well be cousins. A senior George has two sons, and when they in turn have sons, they both call their sons George. Result - two Georges, both born same/nearby town, within a year or two of each other. One goes to London; writes home and says there's plenty of work going, come and join me. Within a couple of years the second George is also in London.

Haven't yet looked at any of the details you've given.

I had considered that. There was a George Burnand who ran a coach making business in both York and Harrogate in 1790s* so it would make the odds of two relatives having same job more likely. But maybe due to all the different spellings of burnand I've found it hard to track back that next few generations.

* There are lots of adverts in the newspaper archives