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  1. #1
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    Default The (very) many John Smiths of Birmingham

    We've been watching Peaky Blinders which may or may not have got me interested in delving into my Birmingham rellies again, as I vaguely remembered a couple of blokes called Smith who were in the licenced victualling business. So, delve in I did.
    There are a lot of chaps called John Smith who were in the beer business in the 1840s through to the 1870s - There are at least four (and maybe more) John Smiths in the licenced victualling/beer selling/publican-ing business in Birmingham around the time in question (as if John Smith wasn't common enough!)
    Now, *my* John Smith was married to a lady called Ann Wragg (or Ragg), they have a number of kids including my great-great-grandfather, Sidney.
    1841 - 21 St Georges St (publican - dunno what pub though, he’s aged 30) + living with Ann (W)Ragg (aged 20)
    1844 - Married Ann Wragg
    1851 - 59 Hatchett St (the Slingo or Stingo Inn) Retail Brewer (John now aged 49, Ann aged 33)
    1859 - John died at the Fountain Inn in New John St West (don’t know how old)
    1861 - Ann takes over as licencee of the Fountain Inn (Ann is now aged 40)
    by 1871, she's married another bloke (Samuel Foster or Forster), and she's widowed again by 1881 (aged 62).
    BUT there's another John Smith that I seem to have connected to my tree - He's aged either 38 or 30 and is at the Kings Arms at 99 Great Barr St and married to Mary (John is aged 38, Mary is aged 39)
    I have tried to find the second John Smith with Mary Smith to confirm whether he's a different person - he was definitely at the Kings Arms in 1849 according to a directory I looked at, but I haven't been able to find this John Smith after 1849.
    So, herein lies my dilemma...
    I know that the ages in the 1841 census were a bit sketchy, but the John Smith Ann Wragg was living with in 1841 was clearly 30 (that means between 26-34, I think?) so even if he was 34 in 1841, he cannot possibly be 49 ten years later. He died before 1861, so no way of confirming his age and I can't find a proper birth or death record for him.
    The other John Smith (married to Mary in 1841) is 38 in 1841. That matches with the age of John Smith that's married to Ann on the 1851 census, so what I am thinking is possibly the first John Smith is a red herring and was just some rando John Smith that Ann was living with, and somewhere between 1841 and 1844, Mary Smith has died and the John Smith that was married to her has hooked up with Ann and married her in 1844.
    Alternatively, there’s only one John Smith and he was a very busy man…
    I’ve not been able to take my tree back any further than the John Smith that married Ann Wragg – his dad is also very helpfully called John Smith. But maybe if I can clarify how old *my* John Smith was and when he was born, I’ll be able to keep going!

    Jodi The Confused

  2. #2
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    On the 1841 neither John or Ann were born in Warwickshire. in 1851 John is stated as being born in Staffordshire, although Ancestry shows him as being a Retail Brewer, it does not show a name of a public house. Ann was born in Derbyshire, Sidney b abt 1842, Jane b abt 1848 and Emma born abt 1846 in Birmingham.

    All children are with their mother in 1861 at 195, New John Street West. Now there is a further son, George age 8 (born about 1853, so presume John was still alive at this time.

    I have found a baptism record for John Smith at Handsworth St. Mary, Staffordshire (although Handsworth is in Birmingham now) parents John and Mary 16 June 1811.

    In 1871 Ann is living at 45 Lupin St, Aston with Samuel Foster. George is with them. Ann married Samuel Forster in 1865 registered in Aston.

    There are just too many death registrations for John Smith in Birmingham! Of course none of this info may be of any use to you.

  3. #3
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    Jodi, you might want to re-read a rather old thread you made about John.
    Something might just trigger your memory and make you look further at something said there.
    It's amazing how many more records are available online now than in 2011.
    https://www.british-genealogy.com/fo...-of-Birmingham
    Vulcan XH558 - “Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.”

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    On Ancestry Index of Wills and Administrations


    There is a record dated 7th May 1860 relating to John Smith,Late of The Fountain Inn,New John St West.Birmingham.
    Brewer.
    Died 16th December 1859 at the same place.
    Widow,Ann Smith,same address.

    There’s also a tree on Ancestry which has his DOB as 1803 but no sources to back that info up.

    I’m hopeless at attatching photos on here so can’t upload it for you.

  5. #5
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    With regard to the 1841 census,the later directories and the censuses list the pub as no 20 St Georges St. The 1851 census does not list it as a pub, but with James Jarvis as a brasscaster, while 1855 and 1858 directories list James Jarvis as a retail brewer and brasscaster at no 20.The 1861 census lists the pub as The Malt Shovel
    With regard to your other John smith , he is listed at the Kings Arms, 99 Gt Barr St in both the Pigot's 1841 and P.O. 1845 directories, but not there in the 1855 P.O. directory. It can usually be taken that the year of a directory usually refers to the year before as the year listed is the publication, not the survey date. Therefore it must be pretty certain that the second John Smith was at the Kings Arms when the first John Smith was at the Malt shovel and was presumably a different person

  6. #6
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    It appears I am not only figuratively re-tracing my steps, I'm literally doing it! I do recall throwing my hands up in despair and bemoaning the whole John Smith thing at the time (wishing the last name was Kaboodleschnitzer or something easy like that!)

    The more I think about it, the more I think the older John Smith is the right one, and it was some other John Smith that Ann was living with in 1841. Or it might be worth actually *getting* his death certificate as I am 99.8% sure I know his date of death

  7. #7
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    Thanks! I am pretty sure that's the right dead John Smith, as Ann had the Fountain Inn for a bit after he died. I might have to get the death certificate!? Assuming of course that 1859 death certificates had ages on them...

  8. #8
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    Random related question about street numbers... Do street numbers in Birmingham have 2 4 6 8 etc on one side of the road and 1 3 5 7 etc on the other? Or is it just 1 2 3 4 5?

    I have been attempting to find rough locations in Google Maps and I've been having a confuse!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by biggirlsblouse View Post
    Thanks! I am pretty sure that's the right dead John Smith, as Ann had the Fountain Inn for a bit after he died. I might have to get the death certificate!? Assuming of course that 1859 death certificates had ages on them...
    Oh my goodness... I just toddled off to GRO to perhaps order a death certificate for John Smith and crikey moses, the GRO has AGES! So, I have confirmed (ish) that my John Smith was 59 when he died (well, he's definitely not one or 21), so definitely born around 1802/1803. I am going to still order the certificate to be sure.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by biggirlsblouse View Post
    Oh my goodness... I just toddled off to GRO to perhaps order a death certificate for John Smith and crikey moses, the GRO has AGES! So, I have confirmed (ish) that my John Smith was 59 when he died (well, he's definitely not one or 21), so definitely born around 1802/1803. I am going to still order the certificate to be sure.
    Just be careful which one you pick.
    There's two aged 59, dying in Birmingham registration district in 1859. One in September quarter and on in December quarter.
    There's also one aged 56, dying in September quarter 1859.

    The biggest hurdle in death registrations is how well the person who registered the death knew the deceased, and therefore how accurate that information is given compared to other documentation. I don't know if he knows now, but at one time my son only knew my birthday, not the year I was born!
    Vulcan XH558 - “Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.”

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