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  1. #1

    Red face Looking for Moshe Joseph Myer Houndsditch

    Hi
    I am looking for my great x3 grandfather Moshe Joseph Myers. His daughter Phebe ( my gg grandmother)was born in Houndsditch London UK about 1780. She married Isaac Nathan Cohen at the Gt Synagogue in 1799. and thereafter lived in Portsea, Hampshire.
    I am also interested in their children prior to 1825.

    I do hope someone can help please or do lookups.

    Thank you
    Maryeb

  2. #2

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    I have started to do research on the lines but the difficulty you will have is finding early records on the children of Phoebe and Isaac unless they appear in the Great Synagogue or Hambro records. There would be a circumcision record for the boys but these were usually held by the mohel and these records are very rare. In addition, if you look on Synagogue Scribes birth records for London you won't see any links to to the births of: Isabella 1806-1874;Rachel 1806;Clara 1821;Esther 1823-1874;Rebecca 1823-1905;Amelia 1828-1879;Jacob 1834 Nb These names are based purely on Ancestry public family trees and I have not verified the accuracy of names dob, death or marriages. I can see marriages to Samuels and Harris.

    Although I have transcribed almost 800 new wills which were added to Synagogue Scribes there are many not yet transcribed or else never written. I am adding more over time. As yet I can't see relevant records for your Moses Myers. My own family line are also Myers and the lack of data applies to my own 5x great grandfather Jacob Myers who never wrote a will or if he did it was not in the UK. You will note from many will extract records that numbers of wills were written in Amsterdam with some in Italy and this reinforces the scarcity of documents and also name changes.

    I have various records I will look up but the pre 1825 date may mean that no documents exist.
    Phillip-Jewish,British Ancestry

    "The only true dead are those who have been forgotten"

  3. #3

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    Thank you Phillip,yes I do realise the problems of finding information in those early times. I was hoping to find out where Moses Myer originated from. I know some Myers went to Jamaica and some came from Germany also from Portugal. My DNA had 23% Iberian so it seems someone came from there.
    My Samuel/s came from Germany. There were two brothers?Jacob m. Clara and Morris m. Amelia. İ have never found a record of Morris'marriage to Amelia. These two are my great grand parents.
    Thanks again for your help
    Maryeb

  4. #4

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    If you look on JewishGen UK Data base 1851 Petra Laidlaw has recorded several records for Phoebe and her children- see 1851 Census HO 107 1608 24 2 28 2b which has Phoebe wrongly recorded as age 60 and a 'daughter' born Houndsditch living with Samuel Harris born Prussia Glazier and Rebecca plus children and visitor another Samuel.
    Isabella married Lewis Yoell see 1851 Census data base Jewish Gen ID 4027. There is a marriage GSM 259/28 in 1829 of a Morris Samuel to Phoebe Cohen. I don't know if he is the same Morris who is a visitor in the 1851 Census at 39 Crooked Lane Milton Gravesend Kent where Phoebe is living with Samuel Harris.

    I will continue looking.
    Phillip-Jewish,British Ancestry

    "The only true dead are those who have been forgotten"

  5. #5

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    Although there are numbers of records relating to individuals called Moses Myers there is no confirmatory data to indicate whether or not they relate to Phoebe Myers. JewishGen UK Data bases have records of London traders with the name Moses Myers including Moses Myers dealer in old clothes Gravel Lane Houndsditch 1767 and another one a salesman 20 Still Alley Houndsditch 1791. In the 1851 census Phoebe is recorded as born Houndsditch but this may or may not be accurate and other records may give an alternative origin.
    There is a Myer Moses who is a witness in the Old Bailey trial 1771 and states " I am a chapman in Rosemary Lane..."
    London Tax records include Moses Myers Aldgate 1781 and New Court Aldgate 1799.

    Looking at Synagogue Scribes records there are marriages for Kitty Myers -father Moshe in 1793 to Jacob Joseph GSM 022/5 and GSM033/3 1796 Rose Myers father's Hebrew name Moshe to Hyam Levy in 1796.

    Casting the net wider the Portsmouth Synagogue Early Membership has Moses Myers ( Minister) Moses b Meir Reinbach,Lissa Rabbi pre 1765 and then minister in London; David Myers or Joseph David b Meir Joseph Origin Isfield pre 1765 wife Phoebe. These records may have no relevance but worth noting and checking.

    It is very rare for an ordinary individual to have a record of where they were born and when particularly Jewish immigrants for the time period of Moses Myers. Locations such as Germany can cover wide areas including Poland or other territories. Name changes particularly the adoption of patronymic names also make it difficult to clearly identify individuals, their parents and any possible siblings.
    There are no records on any Ancestry family tree which help narrow down the origin of Moses Myers although a last name of Pollock has been included in one tree for his father which is likely to be a derivation of Polak or comparable name. However, there are no sources to indicate where this name came from.

    Similarly,there is a GRO Death index record for a Moses Myers circa 1838 but unless the certificate is bought it does not confirm if this is the right person. The mother of Phoebe is unknown and there are no records of her siblings. Currently, there is one Marriage Record for Phoebe to Isaac Cohen -Synagogue Scribes GSM 051/6-1799 with her father's Hebrew name Moshe Joseph suggesting his father was Joseph.

    I have yet to look in detail at the associated families in publications such as The Jewish Victorian.Genealogical Information from the Jewish Newspapers 1861-70 and 1871-1880. Transcribed and edited by Doreen Berger, Robert Boyd Publisher nor have I checked the Jewish Chronicle Archives 1841-present but often many Jews did not have the money to pay for newspaper B,M,D records.
    Phillip-Jewish,British Ancestry

    "The only true dead are those who have been forgotten"

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by phillip View Post
    Although there are numbers of records relating to individuals called Moses Myers there is no confirmatory data to indicate whether or not they relate to Phoebe Myers. JewishGen UK Data bases have records of London traders with the name Moses Myers including Moses Myers dealer in old clothes Gravel Lane Houndsditch 1767 and another one a salesman 20 Still Alley Houndsditch 1791. In the 1851 census Phoebe is recorded as born Houndsditch but this may or may not be accurate and other records may give an alternative origin.
    T
    Thank you for all your trouble Phillip, it's much appreciated.
    The two Myers girls Kitty and Rose are interesting as the marriages are about 3 years apart and if you added Phoebe, she was 3 years later 1799. However that's guess work.

    The Morris Samuel on the 1851 census visiting Gravesend is my Gt grandfather. He and Amelia were already married. Amelia also filled in the census at Spitalfields including him. He was born in Posen Germany, I thought it must be what is now Poland But a friend seems to think it is Posen Knau, Saale-Orla-Kreis, Thüringen, anyway he and Amelia plus two children moved to Gravesend and lived there until they died. Morris had a sad end drowning in the canal at Higham on a foggy night.

    Maryeb
    Last edited by Maryeb; 10-04-2022 at 6:19 AM. Reason: Left some words out

  7. #7

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    When I started my family history research in Australia over thirty years ago I knew nothing about my Jewish roots. However, with the support of many distant cousins- 2 of whom are Rabbi- I have fortunately researched and identified all the main individuals. In your own case do you have marriage records for the children of Phoebe? As you may know, civil records for b,m,d began in 1837 but many people did not always record the information. The marriage record -ketubah- was usually given to the bride and not retained by the synagogue until much later in the 19th century. I have posted on this information in much earlier posts on the Jewish roots site. With regard to birth records pre 1837 Jewish records are either non existent or recorded only in family records or in very rare cases in circumcision records.
    I have not looked at burial records and are you interested in these?
    Beyond Moses which of the Phoebe/Isaac children have you limited data on?
    Phillip-Jewish,British Ancestry

    "The only true dead are those who have been forgotten"

  8. #8

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    I have a marriage for Jacob and Clara who emigrated to US in 1848 and I have a record for Isabella and Lewis Yeoll, no record for Rebecca or for Amelia and Morris. Esther died 1874 Jacob I think was a grandson rather than a son. I think he took the name Davis and turned up in Bishops Waltham marrying Honour Jupe.
    If the burial records give any more information then yes I am interested. Phoebe may have been buried in W Ham and I don't know where Amelia was buried I think I found Morris in in West Ham jewish cemetery on Ancestry.
    Their son Joseph became an undertaker in W Ham I don't have a death record for Samuel Harris, he must have died between 1860-1870 as in the 71 census Rebecca was a widow.

  9. #9

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    I read about the death of Morris Samuel at Higham Station found in the Canal after being missing for two weeks. A very sad story. I also saw the death certificate for Isaac Cohen June qtr 1843 Portsea I 7 101 and noted death of Phoebe Cohen June qtr q864 Gravesend 2a 192.
    Phoebe didn't appear in the 1841 Census with Isaac and I wonder where she was- Isaac appears in the 1841 Census HO107 415 8 9 72 21 ( called Cohan in the Ancestry transcription) College Street Portsea Town Hampshire. In the 1841 Census ages for adults over 15 are usually ( but not consistent) rounded by 5 years.

    You already have this data but I posting it to help others who may be interested in the lines.

    The United Synagogue Findagrave burial records show- Willesden Amelia Samuel 15/3/1878 burial Section A Row C Plot 51; West Ham Morris Samuel 14/4/1892 Section G Row 11 Plot 25
    You might want to check the site for other family burials providing they are in the various cemetery locations. To date, I can't locate Rebecca Harris died 1905- she is not buried at East or West Ham but I am uncertain if all records are recorded.

    In the case of Esther Cohen who only appears ( so far) in the 1841 Census but dies age 50 in Portsea I am still puzzled why she doesn't appear in subsequent census up to 1871. I have wondered if she was in an institution or else abroad. What are your thoughts?

    Similarly, Jacob and Clara Samuels who appear in the immigration records sailing from London to New York and arriving 22 October 1848- Jacob Samuel 33 glazier, Clara 33, Simon Samuels 24. Having searched USA census records they are not listed as a couple or individually unless one died or they divorced and re- married.

    Marriage records for Amelia and Rebecca - I can't locate them even using different combinations of names.

    I looked in the Jewish Chronicle Archives for the families but nothing recorded although a further check might locate associated families. Similarly, probate records are not recorded for the various individuals unless I have missed them.

    There are puzzles with some of the individuals as described which you already know.

    At present this is about as far as I can help you but I will keep looking.
    Phillip-Jewish,British Ancestry

    "The only true dead are those who have been forgotten"

  10. #10

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    Thank you so much Phillip, I think I did find Phoebe in 1841 nursing someone. I'll check again. One more thing if you have the time and patience, do you know anything about Nathan Cohen Isaac's father. I think I found him as father at three more sons wedding as recorded on Synagogue Scribes. They to were married at the Gt Synagogue Jacob Nathan, Aaron Nathan, and Joseph Nathan. I don't have their mother's name assuming they are Isaac's brothers.
    Thanks again Maryeb

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