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  1. #1
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    Default James Potter Greenwich Pensioner

    Whilst trying to get a lead on my Potter ancestry I turned up James Potter in the 1861 census
    Here he is listed as being at Daniel Street, Portsea.
    James Potter is listed as a "Greenwich pensioner" which is a new term to me. I understand that this is the naval equivalent to the "Chelsea pensioners"
    Does his being a Greenwich pensioner open up any new avenues of research for me?
    thanks
    daryl

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    Firstly, census information, which may or may not be useful.

    1841 census reference HO107/1107/6 folio 19 page 3
    Living in St Leonard, Hastings. Occupation - navy

    1851 census reference HO107/1635 folio 653 page 35
    Living in Saint Mary Bulverhithe, Hastings. Occupation - coastguard

    1861 census reference RG9/636 folio 212 page 26
    Living in Daniel Street, Portsea, Portsea Island. Occupation - Greenwich pensioner

    1871 census reference RG10/1132 folio 97 page 38
    Living in Unicorn Street, Portsea, Portsea Island. Occupation - pensioner

    1881 census reference RG11/1146 folio 5 page 4. (Currently indexed on FMP as folio 6 page 5. I have sent a correction.)
    Living in Portsea. Occupation - naval pensioner

    I did an internet search for 'Greenwich pensioner', and found quite a bit of reading.

    https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...etails/r/C1782
    https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ails/r/C757481
    https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/...ings-pensions/

    The latter link lead me to FMP who have a dataset British Royal Navy & Royal Marines Service and Pension Records, 1704-1919.
    Searching for James Potter found several results.
    The series/piece ADM 29/099 is just an index which has 48 547 in two columns. The first is the volume, the second the page number. Volume 48 covers Certificates of Servitude for seamen 8 November 1851 - 2 March 1853

    By a lucky chance, I found that to be the entry in ADM 73/039. There's nothing to positively make that your James, though.

    I haven't checked out any of the other entries.
    Vulcan XH558 - “Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.”

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    Pam has posted while I've been (very) slowly typing, so apologies for the duplications, but this is what I found:

    In 1851 he is in Bulverhythe, Sussex and is a coastguard. The eldest child with him is Emma aged 10 born Portsea, and her baptism shows him as a mariner.

    FmP has a record set "British Royal Navy & Royal Marines Service And Pension Records, 1704-1919", which unfortunately isn't the easiest to search, but there is a record that partly fits and partly doesnt!

    The TNA reference is WO 23/024 and it says he was granted a pension in 1868 (which obviously doesn't fit) but his rank or rating is Boatman and then underneath Coastguard, and his Staff Officers District is Portsmouth.

    I don't pretend to understand all the columns, but here goes:
    Greenwich Hospital Pension No: 254
    Naval Pension No: 4174
    Naval Pension Already Awarded: £18 12s
    Greenwich Hospital Pension: £7 12s
    Total Rate of Pension per Annum: £26 4s
    Date from which Pension is to Commence: 1 April 1868
    Term: Life

    There's also a less informative record for an apparently different James Potter, from 1859:
    'Seamen and Marines who have been granted Pensions at the Examination 17 Mar 1859'
    Under the heading 'Seaman' is a James Potter granted 30s 16d for "Life. Increased from original date 23 Dec '58" The number 3815 is written after this.

    I've found a service record for a James Potter in ADM 29/048, which begins on 10 Apr 1827. This seems to have him aboard HMS Fisgard Oct 1847- Dec 1853, which means he cant also be the man in the 1851 census in Sussex. I can't make out where he is 1853-1856, then there seems to be a gap until 1859-1861 when he's listed as HMS Fisgard again.

    There is another James Potter, Pensioner in the census, and this one was born c1808, Deptford and was a mariner in 1851 and a pensioner in 1861, so all we need now is to work out which one is which!

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    Possibly helping (and possibly not!) the James Potter whose full service record is on FmP served on HMS Childers 9 Dec 1829 - 18 Jan 1833.

    The National Archives has a listing for HMS Childers under ADM 27/23/89:

    HMS Childers: allotment numbers 1487-1489, year of allotments 1830.
    Pages 376-377: James Potter; Ship's name: HMS Childers; Pay book number: SB 29; Rank: Able Seaman; Relation: Mother, Elizabeth.

    Do we know the parents of the James Potter born Newcastle but later living in Portsea?

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    1841 census reference HO107/1107/6 folio 19 page 3
    Living in St Leonard, Hastings. Occupation - navy
    The chap with the full service record was on the Modeste 4 Dec 1837 - 5 July 1841, then underneath 6 July 1841 - 10 May 1842. Arrived injured.

    The National Archives has this:
    James Potter, aged 33, Captain of Fore Top belonged to HMS Modeste; taken ill in Canton River; sick or hurt, dysenteria; put on sick list 15 June 1841, invalided and discharged 10 July 1841 for passage to England

    There are may newspaper reports about the Modeste (which initially seems to have spent a lot of time around Africa capturing Portuguese slave ships), but a report in the Hampshire Advertiser 22 Aug 1840 states that it was launched and fitted out at Woolwich in 1837, with "the whole of the crew being composed of Woolwich lads"

    So I think we can safely say that the lovely service record must be the 'other' (Deptford) James Potter

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    Thank you Pam and Jomot1. You have certainly given me plenty to work with.
    In answer to your question Jomot1, it looks like James' parents were Robert and Alice (Story) Potter, but I need to look into that in more detail.
    The reason I am looking at this James Potter is this.
    Over many years I have failed in my attempts to get a lead on Eliza Potter who married William Hedges in 1862, in Portsea. Her father was given as James Potter, labourer, and her age, 20, indicates a birth in 1842. Her "residence" was "Anglesea Barracks".
    I started looking at this James Potter as he was living in Portsea in 1861. Perhaps he was the father of Eliza Potter....
    In tracing James Potter through the census record (thanks for your help) I see that there is no mention of any Eliza. At the age of 19 in 1861 she may well have been working away from home, but that doesn't explain her absence in the 1851 census. So it looks like back to the drawing board, although I haven't given up on this James Potter completely - there is a tantalising gap in the children in the 1851 census (Emma 1841 and Henry 1843) so perhaps a little more effort is warranted.
    Your help has solved one intriguing mystery though, why were James' children born in so many different places (according to the 1851 census.
    Emma 1841, Portsea, Hampshire; Henry (1843) St Leonards, Sussex; Sarah (1845) Portsea, Hampshire; Ellen (1847) Bulverhythe, Sussex;
    Thanks again for your help, very much appreciated.

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    Which one is your ancestor (or connected to your ancestor) - William Hedges or Eliza Potter?

    And how did you get back to that person? Presumably you must have found them on a census. If so, which one, and what's the reference? Where does it say William and Eliza were born? Do the ages at marriage tie in roughly with the ages in the census?
    I've had a look for them in the 1871 census, but there's no obvious 'them', nor do they seem to have had any children.

    Pam
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    Um, done a bit more digging.
    At the time of his marriage, WIlliam was a soldier, living in barracks.
    Anglesea Barracks were also army (not naval) barracks, so Eliza could just have been living there as a servant.

    I suspect the reason for no children registered in England and Wales is because William, and most likely Eliza as well, were abroad with the army.

    In the 1861 census William (as just W Hedges) is with the 55th Regiment of Infantry in Aldershot. Ties in with the information on the marriage certificate. William, then aged, 21, born Braintree, Essex. Census reference RG9/431 folio 164 page 9.

    1851 census has William, aged 10, living in Braintree (but born in Bocking) with his father Thomas, a handloom weaver, mother and siblings. Census reference HO107/1785 folio 531 page 19.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pam Downes View Post
    I suspect the reason for no children registered in England and Wales is because William, and most likely Eliza as well, were abroad with the army.
    A daughter was born in England in 1863 (GRO Regimental Birth Index): Alice M Hedges, Braintree, 55th Foot

    William was in Braintree in 1851, but there was also an Eliza Potter living there in 1851 & 1861 whose mother was Mary and father apparently James, although he never appears in the census as Mary declares herself a widow (possibly the reason for her father being James at marriage & John at death?)

    The Potters:
    1851: HO107/1785/585/36 - Hyde Field Road, Braintree (Eliza shown as aged 7)
    1861: RG9/1115/77/7 - Iron Stile, Braintree (Eliza shown as aged 16)

    The Hedges:
    1851: HO107/1785/531/19 - Mill Lane, Braintree
    1861: RG9/1115/80/14 - Mill Lane, Braintree

    Both families are in Enumeration District 5 in 1861, described on census as follows:
    Part of the Parish of Braintree comprising the Cattle Market, Cottage Place and Lane, Iron Stile, Hyde Field Row and the gants in the rear, both sides of Mill Lane eastward from the Pound-field Gate as far as Allen's Coal Wharf, including Saddler's Cottages.

    So both families lived very close to each other....

    Potter children:
    POTTER, ELIZA mmn WENDON GRO Reference: 1839 J Quarter in BRAINTREE UNION, ESSEX Volume 12 Page 19
    POTTER, MATILDA (no mmn) GRO Reference: 1846 J Quarter in BRAINTREE ESSEX Volume 12 Page 22
    POTTER, ROSINA mmn WENDON GRO Reference: 1848 M Quarter in BRAINTREE ESSEX Volume 12 Page 19

    The age of Eliza born 1839 just doesn't fit with the census and there is an 1840 death of an Eliza Potter aged 1, so perhaps Eliza was registered under a different surname, or just not registered at all?? It's also odd that Matilda's birth registration has no mmn.

    James POTTER m Mary WENDON at St. Michael the Archangel, Braintree on 21 Apr 1833.

    For what it's worth, my money is on this being the Eliza Potter who married William Hedges.

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