1855 births, Co. Down and Wigtown, Scotland

[westernwombat]

I'm quite ignorant about the sources of BDM in Ireland / Northern Ireland, and have heard only vague information about records "lost in fire".

My great grandparents James McCully and Jane McEwan were both said to have been born around 1855, James at Drumgooland which I understand to be near Banbridge, Co. Down.

I've learnt here that Northern Ireland only began the recording of birth dates in 1864.

Apart from using age at death and death date, or family/other records, are there sources for obtaining a birth date?
When he died in Govan, Scotland in 1901 James McCully's age was recorded as 46 (in ScotlandsPeople). I haven't obtained a certificate.

His wife Jane McEwan was born at Inch, Cairnryan, Wigtown, Scotland and I obtained this information from FamilySearch database "Scotland Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950"
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQ8B-59C
Jane Mcune, b. 29 Oct 1855 at Inch,Wigtown,Scotland - father's name: David Mcune, mother's name: Elizabeth Brown

After seeing the various spellings of her surname, I used the various options at ScotlandsPeople ("sounds like", etc) as well as variants I had seen. Similarly, for McCully.

[grisel]

If you want to find out about James McCully, you should first obtain his marriage details. If you register with Scotland's People and buy a few credits (minimum is 30 for £7.50. A marriage record needs 6 credits.)The record should with luck show his age and his parents' names and father's occupation.
You might also want to check his census details in case a place of birth is shown.
The Ulster Historical Foundation's free search shows a number of James McCullys( and variants)baptism records in the 1850s in Co Down. If you search on UHF put McCul in the search terms. As James named his eldest son Alexander it is possible, tho not certain, that his father was Alexander. You need to pay to check UHF's records. McCully does seem to be a common name in that area though so much care needed!

[helachau]

I'm quite ignorant about the sources of BDM in Ireland / Northern Ireland, and have heard only vague information about records "lost in fire".

I've learnt here that Northern Ireland only began the recording of birth dates in 1864.

Have a look at
https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit....ds-burned.html

Irish BMDs
Civil births recorded from 1864
Civil marriages recorded (a) non Catholic from 1845 (b) Catholic from 1864
Deaths from 1871 with WiP to go further back

[Elwyn Soutter]

As has been suggested you should get James McCully’s parents names and occupations from his marriage certificate. You should also get it from his death certificate. The certificates normally tell you if they were alive or dead on the relevant dates. It’s not expensive to view an image on Scotlandspeople.

As you say, birth registration only started in Ireland in 1864, so prior to that you need to rely on church records. So we need to know what denomination James was. If born in Drumgooland and Church of Ireland (ie Anglican) the records start in 1779, if Presbyterian then there’s a choice of 3 churches – Drumgooland has records from 1836, Drumlees from 1826 and Leitrim from 1839; if RC Drumgooland Lower has records from 1832 and Drumgooland Upper from 1827.
The RC records are on-line on Ancestry and the nli site: https://registers.nli.ie

Some of the other records may be on-line but a lot of records are not, especially Presbyterian records. This link explains what records exist, parish by parish:

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/publicat...church-records

If you are unable to go yourself, you could employ a researcher. Researchers in the PRONI area: https://sgni.net

Looking at the 1901 census for Co Down, almost all the McCullys listed were Presbyterian, so that would be the denomination to start with. Presbyterian in Ireland normally = Church of Scotland in Scotland. It also generally indicates that the Drumgooland family originated in Scotland too (as did literally half the population of Co. Down). They will have moved to Ireland in the 1600s.

To speed things along for you, I looked at the 1875 marriage in Dalmellington. It tells me that James’s parents were Alexander McCully (dead), a labourer and Margaret Moore (alive). I then looked in Griffiths Valuation for Co Down in 1863. There was only 1 Alexander McCully listed and he lived in Cloghskelt, near Drumgooland. So fairly promising. He had plot 74 which was three quarters of an acre. (Today that’s on the modern Drumgooland Rd. Looking at it on Google Earth, the house is long gone but you can still see the foundations).

https://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffi...tion/index.xml

A glance at the death records list an Alexander McCully death in that general area in 1868 aged 73. You can view the original certificate on-line on the GRONI website, using the “search registrations” option. You will need to open an account and buy some credits. It costs £2.50 (sterling) to a view a certificate:

https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk

Death certificates from 1871 onwards are viewable on-line free. I searched for Margaret McCully's death post 1875 and found this in Cloghskelt in 1901:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy....30/4617132.pdf

Informant was her son Adam. This looks to be him in the 1901 census:

https://www.census.nationalarchives.i...skelt/1200689/

There was another McCully family nearby (with a young Adam) so I’d suspect they are connected in some way. (William & Adam are probably brothers but I haven’t verified that).

https://www.census.nationalarchives.i...skelt/1200701/

1st Adam family in 1911:

https://www.census.nationalarchives.i...oskelt/204675/

Note that the family were Presbyterian so are likely to have attended one of the 3 churches mentioned previously. Their records are unlikely to be on-line.

Probate abstracts:

McCully Adam of Clogskelt county Down farmer died 27 September 1934 Probate Belfast 21 November to John Moore farmer and merchant and Robert James Malcolmson farmer. Effects £519 8s. 7d.

McCully Ann of Closkelt county Down married woman died 21 February 1921 Administration Belfast 21 March to Robert James Malcomson farmer. Effects £36.

Probate of the Will of William McCully late of Closkelt County Down Farmer who died 10 June 1922 granted at Belfast to Robert James Malcolmson and Adam McCully Farmers Effects £42.

Above probate files are not on-line. The files should be in PRONI (the public record office) in Belfast in paper format.

Here’s Alexander McCully & Margaret Moore’s marriage in Drumgooland Presbyterian church in 1849:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy....63/5390688.pdf

Both lived in the same townland (and I notice that a Moore was executor of Adam’s will in 1934 so the families presumably lived near each other and remained close). Tradition was to marry in the bride’s church but in this case it’s possible it was also the husband’s church.


On a separate note, I see that Jane McEwan/McCune was born in 1855. That was a very good year to be born in Scotland. It was the first year of birth registration and certificates that year (only) contained a lot of information that was dropped in subsequent years. You should get her parents birthplaces, how many siblings she had, alive and dead, etc.

[Pam Downes]

Many of us miss the old 'thank you' button, and it's impossible to say thank you for all of the useful replies that people post, but this one is an exception as there is just so much information in it.
Thank you, Elwyn.

Pam

[grisel]

Many of us miss the old 'thank you' button, and it's impossible to say thank you for all of the useful replies that people post, but this one is an exception as there is just so much information in it.
Thank you, Elwyn.

Pam

Yes , a thank you to Elwyn for the very useful information and also for kindly spending some Scotland's People credits.

[Elwyn Soutter]

Yes , a thank you to Elwyn for the very useful information and also for kindly spending some Scotland's People credits.

My pleasure. It only cost a bawbee.

[westernwombat]

Elwyn - that is a heap of very useful and interesting information. I have not revisited here (BG) for the 12 days since posting, and now have a lot to digest and follow up.
There are unsourced "mentions" in passed-on stories that I now find - from your help - have more credibility than I thought.
And I need to by some ScotlandsPeople credits, as the McEwan/McUne and McCully names are prominent in my ancestry.

Ian

[Elwyn Soutter]

There’s a record of a James McCalley of Cloughskelt whose will was probated in 1774. Possibly related to your family.

https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~rosda...Mc/McCully.htm

The surname seems to have been common in the adjacent townlands of Moneyslane and Deehommed. No Scots in Cloughskelt in the 1659 census so your ancestors arrived there after that.

Found a marriage in 1871 for Mary Ann McCully of Cloughskelt whose father was Alexander, to Moses Stranaghan. Marriage was at Drumlee Presbyterian, so possibly that was the family church, and not Drumgooland. Checking the records in PRONI may be the only way to find out.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy....49/8166347.pdf

12 McCullys from Closkelt (Cloughskelt) signed the 1912 Ulster Covenant. So that tells you about their political views on Home Rule in Ireland. (They were against it). You can see their signatures on the Ulster Covenant site.

https://apps.proni.gov.uk/ulstercove...chResults.aspx

Staunch Ulster Scots evidently.

[westernwombat]

Found a marriage in 1871 for Mary Ann McCully of Cloughskelt whose father was Alexander, to Moses Stranaghan. Marriage was at Drumlee Presbyterian, so possibly that was the family church, and not Drumgooland. Checking the records in PRONI may be the only way to find out.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy....49/8166347.pdf

Many thanks - this specific research and the general information about migrations, surnames, and record-keeping is fascinating - I'm very grateful to Elwyn and to others here that certainly "know their stuff" and are so generous.

There is a daughter of James McCULLY (1855-1901) and Jane McEWAN (1855-1917) whose name was Mary Ann Stranaghan McCULLY, born 13 Apr 1897 and died in 1898, in Partick, Lanarckshire - I had looked for that middle forename in the Scotland records, expecting there to be a surname link.

A McCully family researcher in New Zealand with whom I correspond on occasions suggested that Stranaghan was a surname in Drumgooland as common as McCully.