Obtaining RAF records without a death cert

[SuzieGee]

HI,
Hoping someone can help.
I am helping a friend with tracing her father.
I was hoping to get a copy of his RAF record but you need to have a copy of his death certificate.
Where we have a problem is my friend was adopted 9 weeks after she was born.
Her father and mother never married. Her birth certificate does not have her fathers name on it.
Last year she recently found a sister living in England who found letters which mentions a few things about her father.
He was Hugh McDevitt service #1004548. I have since found him on the Forces War records web site.
Told me Hugh enlisted at Padgate 1939-40 and was appointed as a class F reservist RAF.
My friend was told that Hugh was shot down and killed Apr. 1945.
I have search the Commonwealth War Graves site. No mention of him. Have also searched the English Births, Deaths Marriages no Hugh McDevitt death for 1945-46.
I think the only thing I can do is get a copy of his RAF record. However we can not provide a death certificate because we don't know when or where Hugh died.
Has anyone been able to obtain RAF records without proof of death. plus we can not prove he is my friends father as he is not mentioned on her birth certificate so we can't prove her relationship to Hugh.
The other record that was found was a Hugh McDevitt leaving England 1952 for Canada, his occupation was a aircraft engineer, lived Glasgow aged 30. He is a possible if Hugh was not actually killed.
Would appreciate any help on how to get his RAF service record.
Cheers
Sue

[christanel]

Welcome to the British-Genealogy forums. As you have come to us from Forces War Records this 'sticky' explains the connection.
Do you know where Hugh McDevitt was born? I ask because I automatically assumed it was in England (I know making assumptions is wrong!) but there is no Hugh McDevitt/McDevit/MacDevitt/MacDevit etc on FreeBMD in the correct age group which alerted me to the fact I was assuming a lot.
I have not heard of anyone getting a service record without proof of death but others may know. Having his service number may help. Unfortunately at the moment there is an 18 months (give or take a little) wait before receiving records applied for.
Was the sister not in touch with their father either or is she a sister on the mother's side? A date of birth would be a big help.
I'll keep searching and others will join in later I am sure.
Christina

[SuzieGee]

Welcome to the British-Genealogy forums. As you have come to us from Forces War Records this 'sticky' explains the connection.
Do you know where Hugh McDevitt was born? I ask because I automatically assumed it was in England (I know making assumptions is wrong!) but there is no Hugh McDevitt/McDevit/MacDevitt/MacDevit etc on FreeBMD in the correct age group which alerted me to the fact I was assuming a lot.
I have not heard of anyone getting a service record without proof of death but others may know. Having his service number may help. Unfortunately at the moment there is an 18 months (give or take a little) wait before receiving records applied for.
Was the sister not in touch with their father either or is she a sister on the mother's side? A date of birth would be a big help.
I'll keep searching and others will join in later I am sure.
Christina

Hi Christina,
Thank you for your reply.
We think Hugh may have been born about 1921 but would be a bit of a guess.
My friend was told Hugh's father was Scottish and his mother was Spanish. But could be hearsay. I have found a birth on Scotland's people web site for a Hugh McDevitt born Glasgow 1921. But once again at this stage it would be a guess.
The two sisters were born to the same father. My friend was adopted out aged 9 weeks the mother kept the second child as the mother could not go through giving away a second child.
So what happens to Hugh when the second child is born is a mystery.
My friend was born 1942 her sister was born three years later 1945 and that was when Hugh was supposed to have been killed. Apparently he was never around when the second child was born. The mother did marry later to someone else.
If we could just get the military record it would tell us what we need to know. It is so frustrating. That is why I thought I would try on here someone just might have a bright idea.
Cheers
Sue

[SuzieGee]

Forgot to mention Hugh's service number which 1004548
I have the record from the Forces War web site.
cheers
Sue

[christanel]

Did your friend's sister actually get this service number from one of the letters she has? The Hugh McDevitt with service #1004548 is definitely the girls father?
Christina

[SuzieGee]

Did your friend's sister actually get this service number from one of the letters she has? The Hugh McDevitt with service #1004548 is definitely the girls father?
Christina

Hi again,
Hugh's service number was in amongst the papers the daughter found.
I am not sure if it was something official or if it was in one of the letters.
My friend is going to ring her sister who lives in England tonight she may be able to get other details I won't find out until tomorrow.
My friend and I live in New Zealand.
Yes Hugh is defiantly the girls father.
Cheers
Sue

[Lesley Robertson]

Firstly, is the other daughter registered as his? If so, it would simplify things enormously if she applies.

Secondly, when I applied for my Father’s service papers, I could not find his death certificate, so hopefully sent them a photocopy of his obituary to try and avoid the delay of buying a new copy. It didn’t’t work - they stopped the process until I could provide a death certificate.. ..

[timbo58]

Simple answer: The MOD won't supply a record without having proof positive the person is dead.

This is their policy but also a standard archival process to avoid breaching the various privacy information rules & laws.

If this person is not positively listed on the CWGC site then he did not die during his service (up to 1945ish anyway).

That then basically leaves waiting for the records to be become 'public' and released via the national archives.
There have been some changes to those rules in the past few years but best guess would be 8-10 years time, since the process will probably work on a 98-100 years of age minimum unless the person is known to have died in service, i.e. for a person serving until 1945 and surviving a release date of approx 2025-6.

This is only an educated guess, however.
The MOD are taking 12-18 months to find records even for those who can supply all documentation due to covid staff shortages/office closures.
Even then , a service record request less than 25 years from the date of death means the results can be (not always) redacted (certain information may be withheld) without a written permission of the nearest next of kin in the request.

[SuzieGee]

Firstly, is the other daughter registered as his? If so, it would simplify things enormously if she applies.

Secondly, when I applied for my Father’s service papers, I could not find his death certificate, so hopefully sent them a photocopy of his obituary to try and avoid the delay of buying a new copy. It didn’t’t work - they stopped the process until I could provide a death certificate.. ..

Hi Lesley,
Unfortunately the second daughter was also registered under the mothers maiden surname.
So that is no help either.
Hope to hear from my friend again today. Will see if she has anything new to report.
Cheers
Sue

[SuzieGee]

Simple answer: The MOD won't supply a record without having proof positive the person is dead.

This is their policy but also a standard archival process to avoid breaching the various privacy information rules & laws.

If this person is not positively listed on the CWGC site then he did not die during his service (up to 1945ish anyway).

That then basically leaves waiting for the records to be become 'public' and released via the national archives.
There have been some changes to those rules in the past few years but best guess would be 8-10 years time, since the process will probably work on a 98-100 years of age minimum unless the person is known to have died in service, i.e. for a person serving until 1945 and surviving a release date of approx 2025-6.

This is only an educated guess, however.
The MOD are taking 12-18 months to find records even for those who can supply all documentation due to covid staff shortages/office closures.
Even then , a service record request less than 25 years from the date of death means the results can be (not always) redacted (certain information may be withheld) without a written permission of the nearest next of kin in the request.

Hi timbo,
Thank you for your reply.
At this stage I don't know what record they have that said Hugh died in 1945. The second daughter was born Dec 1945 according to her Hugh was never around when she was born or as she grew up.
My thoughts are the mother and father went their separate ways for some reason.
There is no death recorded in England for Hugh.
I do wonder if the one I found on a passenger list going to Canada 1952 is him. His occupation was an aircraft engineer. If it is him and he stayed and died there Canadian records are even harder to obtain. There are no indexes available in Canada.
I don't think my friend has time to wait for the records to become public.
The waiting time is just as bad here in New Zealand. Taking up to around 18 months.
My father was RAF also joined at Padagte. He left the RAF and came to NZ to join the RNZAF. Two years ago I applied for his NZ records because I had to wait for the fifty year embargo to be lifted because of what he did during the war and what he was involved in here with the RNZAF. It took almost two years to get the records.
I recently fund his squadrons records on the National Archives web site.
I was excited as I thought I would find out what was happening when he flew. Only to be disappointed all his flights just had secret. At the time he was in communications working with radar and signals. Still nice to see the other names of the crew he was with at different times.
Thank you again for your help
Cheers
Sue