Obtaining RAF records without a death cert

[SuzieGee]

I think the reference to Padgate on the FWR site may be something of a red herring. Bear in mind that they don't have sight of any original service records but are simply using the limited information that can be found online, including the slips from AIR78 that I posted the link to earlier.

Like the Army, the RAF had 'block allocations' of service numbers, and No's 965000 to 1149977 were allocated to Padgate in September 1939, ie at the beginning of WW2. This doesn't mean he was sent to Padgate for training, although I believe that the Air Crew Selection Board was there, so it's likely where he will have undergone his medical and various selection interviews.

My understanding is that a man would register at his local recruiting office, then undergo the selection process, after which he would generally be placed on Reserve awaiting his call-up instructions. Some were called up almost immediately, although for those in reserved occupations the RAF had to apply to the Ministry of Labour for their release. On 'call up' they would then be sent to an Air Crew Reception Centre, which wouldn't necessarily be Padgate.

Hi Jomot,
Thank you for your reply.
Olive rang me today. She has spoken to her sister in England.
The first thing is the service number they have starts with the 1004548 then after it was /781062. Does this second number mean anything? I always thought it was a WW1 number so if they were in both wars their first number was added. Though I could be wrong there.
The other question I asked was how did they know when Hugh died.
Apparently a cousin on their mothers side said that Hugh was on the National Memorial Arboretum in Staffordshire. I assume the cousin had visited and saw the name. Yet once again there is no mention of Hugh on the war graves web site. I even looked at every spelling with just the initial H. There were pages of them but nothing that looks like or even near to McDevitt. In case the surname was changed and incorrect.
The only thing I can do is see if I can find someone in Stafford who would be willing to visit to check it out. But I can't see it being there and the war graves site missing it.
The other thing was Hugh's occupation before the war. Hugh worked in a bank. I wondered if that was why he was a reservist. Could that have been an essential job at the start of the war?
This chap really is becoming a mystery day by day.
Cheers
Sue

[Lesley Robertson]

I couldn't remember whether anyone had mentioned it, so I went to the National Arboretum site and searched their Roll of Honour database (
HERE) for Hugh McDevitt, any service, and number, and got no hits at all.

The online database for the Armed Forces Wall relates to service people who died on or after 1 Jan 1948 (and Palestine from 1945), so obviously it won't include the relevant Hugh, but I am wondering now which of the many memorials his name was seen on..

There is a list of Memorials at the Arboretum HERE.

You mentioned that you think that he was born abt 1921, which makes a WW1 number impossible!

[Jomot1]

Hi Sue

Per the link I gave previously, his official service number was simply 1004548, so I really don't know where the stated suffix has come from. My Dad was in the RAF so I just checked his papers to see if there was any suffix on those that might have been something administrative, but there isn't. Unfortunately this is the problem with 'second-hand' information - you really don't know the source of it. Is it from a document? If so, what document?

I think the claim that he's on the National Arboretum shows that handed-down information isn't always accurate. The Arboretum website confirms the following: The names of people who have lost their lives on duty, died in operational theatre or were targeted by terrorists since the end of the Second World War are remember on the Armed Forces Memorial. As Hugh didn't die in conflict, he won't be on there.

As to being a reservist, I believe that it was normal practice during the war years for recruits to be placed into the Reserve immediately after the selection process while awaiting call-up for training at an Air Crew Reception Centre.

ADDED: Reading your post again, I'm a little confused. You mention that the information came from the sister in England who never knew Hugh - I thought the daughter in Canada was supplying information?

[SuzieGee]

I couldn't remember whether anyone had mentioned it, so I went to the National Arboretum site and searched their Roll of Honour database (
HERE) for Hugh McDevitt, any service, and number, and got no hits at all.

The online database for the Armed Forces Wall relates to service people who died on or after 1 Jan 1948 (and Palestine from 1945), so obviously it won't include the relevant Hugh, but I am wondering now which of the many memorials his name was seen on..

There is a list of Memorials at the Arboretum HERE.

You mentioned that you think that he was born abt 1921, which makes a WW1 number impossible!

Hi Lesley,
Thank you for checking out the memorial. I would have thought if his name was on a memorial it would be on the war graves site. I am doubting that he was killed in the war.
When I mentioned the second number being a WW1 number I was thinking of the Hugh McDevitt that is on the 1939 register born 1898 and wondered if that Hugh is the one I am looking for.
I will see if I can find anything further on that Hugh though it will be guess work.
Cheers
Sue

[SuzieGee]

Hi Sue

Per the link I gave previously, his official service number was simply 1004548, so I really don't know where the stated suffix has come from. My Dad was in the RAF so I just checked his papers to see if there was any suffix on those that might have been something administrative, but there isn't. Unfortunately this is the problem with 'second-hand' information - you really don't know the source of it. Is it from a document? If so, what document?

I think the claim that he's on the National Arboretum shows that handed-down information isn't always accurate. The Arboretum website confirms the following: The names of people who have lost their lives on duty, died in operational theatre or were targeted by terrorists since the end of the Second World War are remember on the Armed Forces Memorial. As Hugh didn't die in conflict, he won't be on there.

As to being a reservist, I believe that it was normal practice during the war years for recruits to be placed into the Reserve immediately after the selection process while awaiting call-up for training at an Air Crew Reception Centre.

ADDED: Reading your post again, I'm a little confused. You mention that the information came from the sister in England who never knew Hugh - I thought the daughter in Canada was supplying information?

Hi Jomo,
Oh sorry for the confusion.
The woman in Canada is the daughter of the Hugh McDevitt I found born in 1921 Scotland. This is also the same Hugh McDevitt that sailed to Canada 1952. He is not the Hugh I am looking for. Different family.
The Hugh I am looking for had two daughters born Cheshire. Olive who lives here in NZ the other daughter Carol lives in England. When both girls were born Hugh was not married to their mother and his name was not put on their birth certificates. They were told that their father Hugh was born in Scotland.
Sorry I hope that helps explain it. What is even more confusing for me is the woman in Canada who was born there and still lives there, her name is also Carol which is the Chr. name given to Hugh's second daughter in England.
The Carol in Canada knows nothing about the Hugh McDevitt I am trying to find. So we can count that Hugh McDevitt out.
Sorry I hope this helps.
Cheers
Sue

[SuzieGee]

Hi Sue

Per the link I gave previously, his official service number was simply 1004548, so I really don't know where the stated suffix has come from. My Dad was in the RAF so I just checked his papers to see if there was any suffix on those that might have been something administrative, but there isn't. Unfortunately this is the problem with 'second-hand' information - you really don't know the source of it. Is it from a document? If so, what document?

I think the claim that he's on the National Arboretum shows that handed-down information isn't always accurate. The Arboretum website confirms the following: The names of people who have lost their lives on duty, died in operational theatre or were targeted by terrorists since the end of the Second World War are remember on the Armed Forces Memorial. As Hugh didn't die in conflict, he won't be on there.

As to being a reservist, I believe that it was normal practice during the war years for recruits to be placed into the Reserve immediately after the selection process while awaiting call-up for training at an Air Crew Reception Centre.

Hi Jomot
Yes totally agree with you about second hand info.
I also checked my fathers RAF record and no second number. Though here in NZ I have seen NZ records with two numbers. The second number I am sure was if they had served in both wars. They added the WW1 number to their WW2 number so you knew there were two sets of records. It may have been totally different in England.
I did doubt him being on any memorial in England. These days with so many people helping with transcribing and supplying information on the net or to the war graves I am sure he would be on the site.
When Olive told me Hugh's occupation was working in a bank the first thing that came to mind was Dads Army and good old Capt. Mannering.
I am going to see if the Hugh McDevitt I found on the 1939 register born 1898 is any where on the English census. Though his occupation in 1939 was a hotel waiter, bit of a come down to working in a bank, but a job was a job back then. Once again second hand info.
Cheers
Sue

[Lesley Robertson]

There is one other option that should perhaps at least be considered. The confusion at the end of the war and the subsequent clear up provided an opportunity for people to choose to disappear. Could it be that he wanted a fresh start, and changed his identity? Or county/country? He must have a death certificate somewhere.

In your position, I think that I would go back to the last facts that I had solid evidence for, put other verbal information to one side for the moment, and see what else can be found.

[Jomot1]

The woman in Canada is the daughter of the Hugh McDevitt I found born in 1921 Scotland. This is also the same Hugh McDevitt that sailed to Canada 1952. He is not the Hugh I am looking for. Different family.

Sorry Sue, but you still haven't explained how you're able to say beyond doubt that the Hugh born Scotland & emigrated to Canada is a different family. Personally I think he's the same man - he wouldn't be the first to not tell his family the entire story of his past, especially if it involved abandoning his girlfriend and children.

You previously stated that Carol in Canada says her father served in the RAF, and the RAF records held at the National Archives here in the UK show that only one person with the name Hugh McDevitt served in the RAF in the period 1918-1975, and that was the man with service No. 1004548.

The timings for the man from Scotland also work - he wasn't in Scotland in 1945 (per the Electoral Roll), but he was by January 1946 when his father died. This fits perfectly with what you've previously said about 'your' Hugh

The second daughter was born Dec 1945 according to her Hugh was never around when she was born or as she grew up.

Unless the lady in Canada has given you a different (verifiable) service number or been ruled out by DNA then I honestly don't see how you can make the statement that it's a different family.

[Jomot1]

Re the Hugh in the 1939 register, if you look at this one more closely, his DoB is originally recorded as 5 Nov 1909 and has then been changed to 8 Aug 1898, which is a big difference and will make him extremely hard to trace. Also his occupation isn't waiter, it’s been dittoed from the redacted line above, but I think may have been Hotel Porter.

However, it’s worth mentioning that there is a baptism of Hugh McDevitt born 10 Sep 1897, baptised 14 Sep 1897 at Glasgow, St Francis parish (Roman Catholic). Father Bernard McDevitt, mother Bridget Leyden. (NB: His birth is registered as Hugh McDade, born 10 Sep 1897, and the family is also under McDade in the census). This would make him the uncle of the Hugh in Canada. He possibly died in Scotland in 1988.

[christanel]

Sorry Sue, but you still haven't explained how you're able to say beyond doubt that the Hugh born Scotland & emigrated to Canada is a different family. Personally I think he's the same man - he wouldn't be the first to not tell his family the entire story of his past, especially if it involved abandoning his girlfriend and children.

You previously stated that Carol in Canada says her father served in the RAF, and the RAF records held at the National Archives here in the UK show that only one person with the name Hugh McDevitt served in the RAF in the period 1918-1975, and that was the man with service No. 1004548.

The timings for the man from Scotland also work - he wasn't in Scotland in 1945 (per the Electoral Roll), but he was by January 1946 when his father died. This fits perfectly with what you've previously said about 'your' Hugh

Unless the lady in Canada has given you a different (verifiable) service number or been ruled out by DNA then I honestly don't see how you can make the statement that it's a different family.

I agree with all of the above statements.

I am unable to do any constant searching at the moment but am popping in to try and keep up with things.

Christina