Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 16
  1. #1

    Default Can a man change his name to protect his wife

    Hi Im trying to find a James Bell ,i know a lot already - ive ordered birth certificates for all the kids and James bell is the father on a lot of them & he's said to be the father on some of the wedding & death certificates but i can't work something out :

    1891 census in penge Annie Louise Bell (born 1863 in plumstead) was already a widow with a visitor called James Jenkins a baker from plymouth born 1836. (ive found him living with his family in Plymouth upto 1881 )

    1901 James Bell appears in the 1901 census in beckenham , 29 sultan street married to Annie Louise + kids a cabinet maker born in plymouth in 1836.

    1911 just before the census James jenkins dies in beckenham at 29 sultan street and his death certificate states that hes a cabinet maker and one of annies sons - valentine is the informant and the son of james Jenkins

    1911 census Annie is a widow married for 24 years.

    so - does anyone think that James bell is actually James Jenkins and Annie Bell was born Annie Bell and that they lied on the censuses about Annie being a widow. could they have lied that much on every census and every birth and wedding certificate.

    All the children are Bells

    i can only find james bell on 1901 census.

    i can't find James Jenkins in 1901 - the only explanation i can come up with is that hes james bell

    on the latter birth certificates annie is annie bell formerly Jenkins.

    As i am new to family tree searching can anyone please give me any other scenarios.

    i have a lot of details and certificates if anyone wants further info, any help would be very much appreciated as Annie and James were my nans parents and i cant go further back with any certainty.

  2. #2
    Super Moderator - Completely bonkers and will never change.
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    England
    Posts
    9,620

    Default

    Firstly, in the UK you can call yourself any name you like as long as the new name you choose is not used for fraudulent means.

    A few more details for anyone else wanting to help;

    1911 census living Sultan Street, Beckenham
    Census reference: RG14/3671 SN111
    Annie Louise Bell, widow, 50, Plumstead
    Valentine James, son, 21, Penge
    Victor Albert, son, 19, Penge
    William, son, 16, Penge
    May Florence, 13, Beckenham
    Ivy Rose, daur, 9, Beckenham
    Annie Elizabeth, 7, Beckenham

    Mother Annie allegedly married 24 years, 10 children born, 4 died.

    1901 census living Sultan Street, Beckenham.
    Census reference: RG13/688 folio 126 page 12
    James Bell, mar, 65, cabinet maker, Plymouth
    Annie, wife, 39, Plumstead
    Valentine, 11, Penge
    Victor, 9, Penge
    William, 6, Penge
    May, 3, Beckenham


    1891 census living Penge
    Census reference: RG12/588 folio 4 page 1
    Annie Bell, 28, widow, laundress, born Plumstead
    Mildred, daur, 7, Penge
    Valentine, son, 1, Penge
    James Jenkins, visitor, 55, married, retired baker, Plymouth


    1881 census living Beckenham
    Census reference: RG11/851 folio 46 page 28
    This would appear to be Annie.
    Annie L Bell, niece, 19, unmarried, laundry worker, Plumstead
    Head of household is Alfred Stubbings, aged 48, born Swanley (Kent) with his wife Ann, 40, born Kingsdown Kent. Their daughter Selina is 12.

    Birth registrations from the GRO's own site:
    Mildred Rose Edith Ballard BELL, March quarter 1884, Croydon registration district. No MMN.
    Valentine James Bell, December quarter 1889, Croydon registration district. No MMN.
    Victor Albert Bell, March quarter 1892, Croydon registration district. No MMN.
    Possible for William
    William Bell, March quarter 1895, Croydon registration district. Mother's maiden name - Smith.
    May Florence Bell, March quarter 1898, Bromley registration district. Mother's maiden name - Jenkins.
    Ivy Rose Bell, September quarter 1901, Bromley registration district. Mother's maiden name - Jenkins.
    Annie Elizabeth Bell, December quarter 1901, Bromley registration district. Mother's maiden name - Jenkins.

    Do you have some, or all of those birth certificates?
    If so, the important thing is - is a father named? And also, what exactly does it say in the 'informant' box?

    I notice that the 1911 household schedule was completed by Valentine. I wonder if he completed the 1901 schedule too, and automatically assumed that James was called Bell, only finding out when James died that he was actually Jenkins. Valentine may have been a little economical with the truth in 1911 when claiming his mother had been married for 24 years. Though if James and Annie had been in a stable relationship for that amount of time then you could claim that they were 'married'.

    Pam
    Vulcan XH558 - “Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.”

  3. #3
    Brick wall demolition expert!
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Lancashire
    Posts
    3,642

    Default

    I not certain that James Bell and James Jenkins were one and the same because they have different occupations, although both were said to have been born in Plymouth.

  4. #4

    Default

    thank you , you found a lot of info very quickly!

    i have found the link between the Stubbings and that particular Annie - but can i say for sure that it is my annie. Alfred Stubbings wife was a Farrant and in the 1851 Ann Farrant was staying with William and Louisa Bell as a niece. I believe Louisa is a Farrant although i cant find a wedding to prove it.


    i have all the birth certificates including 2 or 3 that i found on the gro site

    Annie was the informant on all the births except victor albert - that was james jenkins in Dec 1891 ( his name was put in the father column then crossed out)

    james bell was the father from May Annie - born in 1893 - through to Annie Elizabeth in 1903.

    may annie (1893) died 1894 - James bell informant
    albert victor(1896) died in 1898 - james bell informant
    albert redvers (1900) died 1900 james bell informant

    another strange thing to add is that Mildred Rose married Robert Woodard in Feb 1901 - James bell cabinet maker was named as the father but he was deceased. He then appeared a few months later in the Census as married to Annie.

    Any ideas would be great - i'm just going round in circles.

  5. #5

    Default

    ps - i believe the ann farrant that stayed with William and Louisa Farrant in 1851 is George Farrants daughter ( george is Louisas brother ) - his wife died young and i think Louisa took her niece in.

    James Jekins had a son in plymouth called Valentine , so i think its possble that James jenkins is Valentine Bells dad
    Last edited by bellfamily; 17-07-2021 at 5:21 PM. Reason: extra info

  6. #6

    Default

    i was reluctant to believe it but when James Jenkins death certificate stated that he was a cabinet maker , i thought he may have been a carpenter when he was young and took it up again when he moved to london

  7. #7
    Knowledgeable and helpful
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    gloucestershire
    Posts
    502

    Default

    1861.
    James Jenkins, 25. Married. Head. Cabinet maker. Born Plymouth. Living with lodger. St Marylebone, Middx. Ref RG09. 86/73. Page66.
    Quite a career change to master baker!

    Baptism 3 April 1836. James, son of William and Elizabeth Jenkins, (paviour) of Morley Place, at St Andrew's, Plymouth. Said to be have born on (27Jan?)

    1851. Living with parents, Morley Place, St Andrews, Plymouth. Apprentice.

  8. #8
    Super Moderator - Completely bonkers and will never change.
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    England
    Posts
    9,620

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by brentor boy View Post
    1861.
    James Jenkins, 25. Married. Head. Cabinet maker. Born Plymouth. Living with lodger. St Marylebone, Middx. Ref RG09. 86/73. Page66.
    Quite a career change to master baker!

    Baptism 3 April 1836. James, son of William and Elizabeth Jenkins, (paviour) of Morley Place, at St Andrew's, Plymouth. Said to be have born on (27Jan?)

    1851. Living with parents, Morley Place, St Andrews, Plymouth. Apprentice.
    I've found that 1861 census entry, brentor boy, and am in the middle of a reply regarding it, an 1871 entry, and more.
    Vulcan XH558 - “Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.”

  9. #9
    Super Moderator - Completely bonkers and will never change.
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    England
    Posts
    9,620

    Default

    I've been having another look at that 1891 census entry, and now I'm not entirely convinced that it does say (or that the original household schedule at least) says/said 'retired baker'.
    1891 census living Penge
    Census reference: RG12/588 folio 4 page 1
    Annie Bell, 28, widow, laundress, born Plumstead
    Mildred, daur, 7, Penge
    Valentine, son, 1, Penge
    James Jenkins, visitor, 55, married, retired baker, Plymouth
    In the 1861 census Bs and Ms were often written in a similar 'style' and it was only when you saw 'moot repairer' as an occupation that you realised it was actually boot repairer, and it was the way the letter B of baker is written that reminded me.
    What we see is a copy of the original household schedule, so did the enumerator mis-read what was on that original schedule? We are forever cursing those schedule checkers who put heavy marks through ages and occupations though if the images had been scanned in colour the marks wouldn't have been quite so obliterating.
    Drat, drat, and double-drat. I also have a sub to The Genealogist so thought I'd see what their images are like. Wonderfully clear image, and you can absolutely see what was written. Retired baker. However, I'm still inclined to think that the enumerator misread what was originally written. If you look at the 'formation' of the letters in the word retired, and then compare it to cabinet, there are up and down strokes in exactly the same position. If you look at the capital Rs on that census page, they have a definite curl ro them so if badly written could perhaps be read as a C. Nowadays we are better 'trained' to look carefully, and at night in much brighter lighting than a couple of candles, nor do we have a timetable to meet.
    Anyway, that's my thoery, and I'm sticking to it.

    I do however, have a 'secret weapon' in my theory.
    These two census entries. (The 1861 one also found by brentor boy. See post #7.)

    1861 census
    Living in Nightingale Street, civil parish of St Marylebone
    Census reference: RG9/86 folio 73 page 66
    James Jenkins, head, 25, mar, cabinet maker, born Plymouth
    Mary Arnold, lodger, unm (FMP say married), 23, cook, Plymouth

    I think this one is the same James as the one previously listed in 1861.
    1871 census
    Living in Stafford Street, civil parish of St Marylebone
    Census reference: RG10/172 folio 60 page 18
    James Jenkins, head, mar, 35, cabinet maker, Plymouth
    Jane, wife, 30 (as transcribed on FMP, though might be a badly-wrtten 36), Saltby(?), Leicestershire.

    Can't find an 'obvious' marriage, and the only Jane born Saltby 1827 +/- 5 years that I could find in 1861 was Jane Everitt (wife of Robert Everitt) who was in Saltby in 1861, 1871, and 1881.


    Meanwhile, in another universe -

    1881 census
    Living in Charlotte Street, Stoke Damerel
    Census reference: RG11/2214 folio 27 page 48
    James Jenkins, head, mar, 45, baker master, Plymouth
    Mary, wife, 43, Plymouth
    James W, son, 7, Devonpost
    Kate E, daur, 5, Devonport
    Valentine F, son, 3, Devonport
    Maude M, daur, 2, Devonport

    Birth registrations from GRO's own website. All with mother's maiden name of Chubb.
    James William, March quarter 1874, Stoke Damerel registration district
    Kate Ellen, June quarter 1875, Stoke Damerel registration district
    valentine Frank, March quarter 1877, Stoke Damerel registration district
    Maud Mary, March quarter 1879, Stoke Damerel registration district

    Highly likely marriage James Jenkins with a Mary Chubb on the same page, June quarter 1873 Plymouth registration district. Sadly, not online, even as a transcription.

    1891 census
    Living in Cobourg Street, civil parish of St Andrew, Plymouth
    Census reference: RG12/1733 folio 24 page 41
    Mary Jenkins, wife, mar, 52, baker's wife, Plymouth
    James w, son, 7, Devonport
    Kate E, daur, 15, Devonport
    Frank, son, 14, Devonport
    Maud M, daur, 12, Devonport

    1901 census
    Living in Cobourg Street, Plymouth
    Census reference: RG13/2101 folio 129 page 22
    Mary Jenkins, wife, mar, 62, baker & grocer, Plymouth
    Kate, daur, 25, Devonport
    Frank, son, 24, Devonport
    Maud, daur, 22, Devonport

    Possible death registration for Mary Spencer Jenkins, aged 64, December quarter 1903, Plymouth registration district.

    (End of message)
    Vulcan XH558 - “Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.”

  10. #10

    Default

    I have the marriage certificate for James Jenkins & Mary Chubb

    James - grocer , 42 morley place - His father William was foreman of works.
    Mary Chubb - 42 morley place - her father Thomas - butcher.

    Mary Spencer Jenkins left her estate to her 2 spinster daughters Kate & Maud

    I also found william jenkins - carpenter - born morley lane plymouth 1830 in 1911 census
    at 180 sydenham road, sydenham kent

    is it too much of a leap to think its James brother.

    theres a william hamilton - carpenter - born plymouth 1830 in 1901 census at 180 sydenham rd

    all a bit wierd

    hence my brick wall
    Last edited by bellfamily; 19-07-2021 at 7:14 PM. Reason: missing info

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Select a file: