John Craven, C 1796 immigration from Germany

[tim-timothy]

Hi Friends!

I'm searching for John Craven in German records. I know that he shows in in Mile End Old Town, London around 1830. His wife Alice,her maiden name POSSIBLY Bacon. Can't find a marriage record for them, so maybe she is from German as well, can ANYONE offer any help. I'm new when it comes to immigration on your "side of the pond" I thank you in advance! Stay well, everyone!

[Pam Downes]

I know next-to-nothing about immigration but hopefully someone who does will read your post and reply.
These are the guides published by The National Archives regarding immigration. I'll leave you to browse them at your leisure.
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/...ation#guidance

For people wishing to help Tim, here's John and Alice in 1841.
Living in Charles Street, Stepney. Census reference HO107/713/6 folio 9 page 10
John Craven, 45, labourer, born F (foreign parts)
Alice, 40,
William, 14,
Diana, 11,
George, 9,
Sarah, 5,
Thomas, 2,
Alice and children all born in county (i.e. Middlesex.)

And in 1851. Living in James Street, Mile End Old Town, Stepney. Census reference HO107/1553 folio 329 page 7.
John Craven, 55, labourer, born Germany
Alice, 48, Holborn
Diana, 21, Whitechapel
George, 18, Whitechapel
Sarah, 14, Whitechapel
Thomas, 10, Whitechapel
The final person is listed as William Craven, aged 30, with 'daur' in the relationship box, gardener, born West Ham.
However, written above the name William Craven it says Bacon, and above 'daur' it says lodger, so I think the person is actually William Bacon, and he's no relation to the Cravens. (Though I have been known to be wrong. )

All at St Mary Whitechapel, all son/daughter of John and Alice.
Dinah baptised in 1830.
George Francis baptised 1832.
Sarah Catherine baptised 1836.
Thomas Henry baptised 11 November 1839.

Thomas Henry birth registration December qurter 1839, Whitechapel registration district. Mother's maiden name BOTFIELD.

Possible death registration for John Craven June quarter 1855, Stepney registration district. aged 56.

Can't find Alice in 1861, though there is a death registration March quarter 1861, Mile End Old Town registration district, but the age is 67. (Badly-written 57 in the register mistranscribed, or am I clutching at straws trying to make things fit?)

Note that George Francis Craven, baptised 1832, is already dealt with in this thread.
https://www.british-genealogy.com/fo...ney?highlight=

Pam

[Lesley Robertson]

There is a site called Cyndi’s List which collects mailing lists, specialized sites, etc, grouped by country. You might find something there.

[arthurk]

All at St Mary Whitechapel, all son/daughter of John and Alice.
Dinah baptised in 1830.
George Francis baptised 1832.
Sarah Catherine baptised 1836.
Thomas Henry baptised 11 November 1839.

Thomas Henry birth registration December qurter 1839, Whitechapel registration district. Mother's maiden name BOTFIELD.

Using FamilySearch I found the marriage of Alice BOTFIELD to John GRAWENN (signature looks like GRAWAN) at Christ Church Spitalfields on 26 Jul 1818. The image can be seen there in Film #007906288, Image 164 - this link might take you there:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61...SH7-HQQ3?i=163

I was a bit surprised to see CRAVEN as a possibly German surname, as it's plentiful in Yorkshire. However, it looks as though this is an anglicised version, so you now have a German version to search with too.

[Pam Downes]

Excellent find, Arthur.
No need to split a link to FamilySearch though as it's not a commercial site.
(I had a slight problem looking at the page as all the grooms seemed to have the same surname of Bach - till I realised it meant bachelor. )

I wondered about Craven being essentially an English name, but thought John might simply have been born abroad to English parents. Not sure if in the 1851 census it should have said 'British subject' if he had British parents and was just born abroad, or whether that detail came in in the later census.

Can't make Grawan into Craven even saying it aloud using funny accents.

Pam

[wimsey]

German W is pronounced V - as you know of course

[tim-timothy]

Pam, I thought the same about "Bachelor" So do you think the marriage record is really them? Is spitalfields close to mile end old town? It puts Alice Botfield at 15, or 16 at the time of the marriage, of course I'm getting that age from censuses which aren't always reliable. Do you really think it's them? I, too saw that Craven was more common as an English surname, so I don't really know what to think now.

[Pam Downes]

Pam, I thought the same about "Bachelor" So do you think the marriage record is really them? Is spitalfields close to mile end old town? It puts Alice Botfield at 15, or 16 at the time of the marriage, of course I'm getting that age from censuses which aren't always reliable. Do you really think it's them? I, too saw that Craven was more common as an English surname, so I don't really know what to think now.

Let's just say that Botfield is an unusual surname. so there's a good chance that it's your John and Alice.

As for closeness of locations, go to google maps. Enter Spitalfields market, collapse the side panel, and then move the map until Spitalfields market is in the top left of your screen. Move the screen very gently to the left and then you'll see Whitechapel market appear in the top right of the screen. There's a scale guide at the bottom of the screen and I'll leave you to work it out more accurately but I reckon they're probably about three-quarters of a mile apart.

If you then move the map back so that Spitalfields market is on the left of the screen, zoom out so that the market is always fairly near the top of the page until you see the river Thames in the bottom right.
Slowly move the map so the south bank of the river disappears. then above the 'arch' of the river and almost level with Spitalfields market you'll see Stepney and Mile End marked.

Remembering that you can search Ancestry's baptisms using just parents' names I searched for John and Alice in Whitechapel and found these additional baptisms.

John Barnet Craven in December 1819, probably born 20 October.
Caroline Elizabeth in May 1821. There's an entry indexed as Caroline Eliz which implies she was born 27 October, presumably the previous year. I'm actually very impressed that Ancestry have indexed the surname as Craven because the C and R look very much like a G.
William James, in 1827. There's an entry indexed as Craver which indicates he was born 19 January 1827.

The 'S Baker' for John's occupation on at least two of the baptisms is sugar baker. (Deduced from entry on opposite page of John junior's baptism.)

Pam

[tim-timothy]

Very interesting. So you think the birth year for John Barnett is 1819? I viewed a copy of the record, I can't make out the year, but if its 1818 it would make him illegitimate?? So you think the "Grawenn" on the marriage certificate is maybe a mistake?

[Pam Downes]

Very interesting. So you think the birth year for John Barnett is 1819? I viewed a copy of the record, I can't make out the year, but if its 1818 it would make him illegitimate?? So you think the "Grawenn" on the marriage certificate is maybe a mistake?

It's all speculation. Back in those days vicars tended to write what they heard, or thought they heard. Spelling wasn't standardised.

What I have just noticed though is the way John spelt his first name when he signed the register - Johan, though that may be just because that's the way he was taught to spell it in Germany. Or it could be because he was actually German.

I checked to see if the banns of marriage were available on Ancestry, and they are but no clues there.
JOhn's surname begins Gra, then take your pick of the next letter being an M or a W, followed by enn.

Pam