1695 no baptism record?

[SimonDMD]

Hi, I have a burial record for a Jeffrey Poole in Llansaintffraid-ym-Mechain parish in 1695. It says "Jeffrey son of Jeffrey..."
Can I assume that he was a child because the father is named?

If that is the case, I am stumped trying to find his baptism record (having been through births line by line from 1654 to 1707 to begin with).

If he died in childbirth would he not have been baptised - hence no record?

Many thanks

Simon

[Lesley Robertson]

Simon, the first thing to remember is that not all records have survived. Damp, fire, carelessness, acid ink (certainly in 17th century) - it's a matter of being lucky. The first thing to do is see whether the records for your parish exist. The best place to check is GENUKI - one of the oldest and best of the UK genealogy sites.

If I saw an entry like that, I would start by looking for babies but then I would extend the search to toddlers and up. They say that the first 5 years were the hardest to survive. Birth registrations were only legally required in 1837, before that you must rely on the Church Registers.

Good luck!

[SimonDMD]

Hi Lesley, Thanks for replying. Via FindMyPast I have the link to the original parish births and burials book: https://
search.findmypast.co.uk/record/browse?id=gbprs%2fwal%2f4434178%2f00042

And I have been over every line more than once from 1654 to his death in 1695. There are faded lines but I am pretty sure there is no corresponding birth record. Hence I am wondering if children who were still born may not have a baptism record.

But generally, do you think if it says "Jeffrey son of Jeffrey Poole was buried..." then it is a child/minor being buried?

[suemalings]

Do you think he was born/baptised in Llansaintffraid-ym-Mechain too? If so what makes you think this?

[SimonDMD]

Hi father was the parish warden in 1684, but I have just seen this:
"One thing to bear in mind is that children were not always baptised in the same village or town where they were born. Most first born children were baptised in the mother's home parish, but second and subsequent children were usually christened in the parish in which the parents lived."

[Pam Downes]

I very much doubt that still-born children would have been baptised.

Yes, I think where it says 'son of' then you're talking about a child/minor being buried. But if he was say, 10, when he died, he could very well have been baptised elsewhere. Think you need to look for baptisms/burials of other siblings in both that parish and other nearby ones.

[SimonDMD]

Thx Pam. His father is in the parish record as a warden in 1684. He is then the first child in the record. After him come 4 more siblings. They bordered Llanymynech parish and I've looked all over that as well. If he was not a child then that would throw a cat among the pigeons and add an extra generation.

If he was not baptised my only question then is could he have had a christian burial?

Really appreciating all the thoughts.

[SimonDMD]

Hi Pam,
I just read this:
I have just seen this:
"One thing to bear in mind is that children were not always baptised in the same village or town where they were born. Most first born children were baptised in the mother's home parish, but second and subsequent children were usually christened in the parish in which the parents lived."

just need to find out where she came from

[Guy Etchells]

Hi, I have a burial record for a Jeffrey Poole in Llansaintffraid-ym-Mechain parish in 1695. It says "Jeffrey son of Jeffrey..."
Can I assume that he was a child because the father is named?

If that is the case, I am stumped trying to find his baptism record (having been through births line by line from 1654 to 1707 to begin with).

If he died in childbirth would he not have been baptised - hence no record?

Many thanks

Simon

First under common law (I.E law created by “case law” or decisions of courts) all parishioners have a right to be buried in the churchyard or burial ground of the parish in which they reside. Anyone who dies in a parish is also entitled to be buried there irrespective of the time they lived there.

Second it is very easy to show that still-born babies were buried in the churchyard and even in the body of the church itself by browsing parish burial registers.
(Here are just two examples - From the register of St Helen, Bishopgate, London 1691 August 23
"A Still borne Child of Mr Veveons, in the South Isle the therd pew from the Quire"

St Mildred Bread St 1683/4 February 9
"An abortive male son of Owen & Mary Buckingham, bur. undr ye 3d Pew on ye North side. A.")

There are hundreds more showing not only burials in churchyards but burials in the church itself.

Regarding baptisms it is more common for baptisms of children to show their parents names than baptisms of adults, in a similar way it is more common for females to be noted as wife or even widow of their husband than the males to be noted as husband of widow(er) of his wife.
The main exception is if the family are rich or own land and then the deceased is sometimes noted for heritage purposes.

It may be a surprise to many that birth & death registrations were legally required from 1644.
In 1644 an ordinance was passed that
"... and it is further ordained, by the authority aforesaid, that there shall be provided, at the charge of every parish or chappelry in this realm of England and dominion of Wales a fair register-book of velim be kept by the minister and other officers of the church; and that the names of all children baptized, and of their parents, and the time of their birth and baptizing, shall be written and set down by the ministers therein ; and also the names of all persons married there and the time of their marriage ; and also the names of all persons buried in that parish, and the time of their death and burial ; and that said book shall be showed, by such as keep the same, to all persons reasonably desiring to search for the birth, baptizing, marriage, or burial of any person therein registered, and to take a copy or procure a certificate thereof."

In 1695 (7th & 8th William III., cap. 35) a similar enactment was made and also distinct registers were to be kept of children born in the parish and not christened all parents were required to give notice of a birth of a child within 5 days of the birth. A fine of 40 shillings was imposed on parents who omitted to give notice within the five days and a similar penalty was payable by the vicar.

Though it is fair to say that these laws, like speeding and littering laws, were frequently ignored.

There has been some good advice in this thread I would also add it is always best to browse the registers rather than using the search option as even the best transcribers make mistakes.
Cheers
Guy

[SimonDMD]

First under common law (I.E law created by “case law” or decisions of courts) all parishioners have a right to be buried in the churchyard or burial ground of the parish in which they reside. Anyone who dies in a parish is also entitled to be buried there irrespective of the time they lived there.

Second it is very easy to show that still-born babies were buried in the churchyard and even in the body of the church itself by browsing parish burial registers.
(Here are just two examples - From the register of St Helen, Bishopgate, London 1691 August 23
"A Still borne Child of Mr Veveons, in the South Isle the therd pew from the Quire"

St Mildred Bread St 1683/4 February 9
"An abortive male son of Owen & Mary Buckingham, bur. undr ye 3d Pew on ye North side. A.")

There are hundreds more showing not only burials in churchyards but burials in the church itself.

Regarding baptisms it is more common for baptisms of children to show their parents names than baptisms of adults, in a similar way it is more common for females to be noted as wife or even widow of their husband than the males to be noted as husband of widow(er) of his wife.
The main exception is if the family are rich or own land and then the deceased is sometimes noted for heritage purposes.

It may be a surprise to many that birth & death registrations were legally required from 1644.
In 1644 an ordinance was passed that
"... and it is further ordained, by the authority aforesaid, that there shall be provided, at the charge of every parish or chappelry in this realm of England and dominion of Wales a fair register-book of velim be kept by the minister and other officers of the church; and that the names of all children baptized, and of their parents, and the time of their birth and baptizing, shall be written and set down by the ministers therein ; and also the names of all persons married there and the time of their marriage ; and also the names of all persons buried in that parish, and the time of their death and burial ; and that said book shall be showed, by such as keep the same, to all persons reasonably desiring to search for the birth, baptizing, marriage, or burial of any person therein registered, and to take a copy or procure a certificate thereof."

In 1695 (7th & 8th William III., cap. 35) a similar enactment was made and also distinct registers were to be kept of children born in the parish and not christened all parents were required to give notice of a birth of a child within 5 days of the birth. A fine of 40 shillings was imposed on parents who omitted to give notice within the five days and a similar penalty was payable by the vicar.

Though it is fair to say that these laws, like speeding and littering laws, were frequently ignored.

There has been some good advice in this thread I would also add it is always best to browse the registers rather than using the search option as even the best transcribers make mistakes.
Cheers
Guy

Hi Guy - thank you taking the time to send this splendid background.