Koperberg, va Wesel etc NL-UK UK 19C

[Beek1956]

See my reply post #110.

Note that December quarter does not mean 'in December'. It means the death was registered between 1 October and 31 December, and that the death could actually have occurred two or three days previously. Deaths in England and Wales are supposed to be registered within five days, but if a death occurred on say, Saturday 30 September, the earliest it could be registered would be Monday 2 October; meaning it would be registered in December quarter.

I think I'm on fairly safe ground with this Elizabeth being Moses' wife. Age fits; Moses is listed as a widower in the 1881 census; registration district is the same as 1871 and 1881 census, plus the same as where Moses was living in 1876 and 1884.

A black-and-white PDF copy of the death certificate will cost you about seven euros.

Pam

Hi Pam

Think you are right and are more knowdlegeable than me.
Now I found out much more about the whole Swart family and now, after checking like Ancestry, am looking for wedding dates/places of following Swarts:
Salomon(1851 Whitechapel)to Leah Mendoza (1852 Aldgate)
Adelaide (1857 Spitalfields)to William Mordechai Hambro(1858 UK)
Gabriel(1859 Spitalfields)to Elizabeth Jacobs (1859 Aldgate)

Maybe you and others in this forum can see if you can find these marriages?
Thanks in advance for your kind help, have a nice day, best regards, Paul

[phillip]

Paul
To point you in the right direction and help build up your expertise look at Familysearch records. You will see Gabriel Swart Marriage 30 October 1883 Boston Massachusetts and marriage to Elizabeth Jacobs with data on her parents and also Gabriel.

Look at Free BMD Marriages Adelaide Swart- William Hambro Nb there are 2 separate records and it is unclear why because they refer to the same couple- Dec qtr.1876 1c 1140 Mile End; Dec qtr.1877 1c 187

I would look at FamilySearch for Salomon/Leah- I have not found their marriage but did not look in detail.

With regard to previous posts on Elizabeth and her burial in 1878 many records are in complete relating to the cemeteries and tombstones may have fallen over or inscriptions eroded. I can't find many of my own people in the current records but these are being added to regularly and it's a question of looking over time.

I would be very cautious relying on online family trees. I have looked at your Swart lines on these trees. There is too little data on many individuals. In the case of Moses Swart and the 2 deaths 1898 and 1903. I would ask my self the question as to why there is no record of Moses Swart post 1881 British Census.
Name changes, spelling errors on names, missing data on ship records etc all can contribute to lack of data on individuals. Again, in the case of my great grandfather who settled in South Africa I can find no record of his migration.

Given that Gabriel, Raphael, Salomon settled in USA and Ralphael changed his surname I would recommend you keep an open view on whether or not Moses remained in the UK or did go to USA.

As Pam rightly said you need the Death Certificates particularly for Moses. In his case, the informant and any occupation, address etc would help you confirm if he is your Moses.

[Beek1956]

Paul
To point you in the right direction and help build up your expertise look at Familysearch records. You will see Gabriel Swart Marriage 30 October 1883 Boston Massachusetts and marriage to Elizabeth Jacobs with data on her parents and also Gabriel.

Look at Free BMD Marriages Adelaide Swart- William Hambro Nb there are 2 separate records and it is unclear why because they refer to the same couple- Dec qtr.1876 1c 1140 Mile End; Dec qtr.1877 1c 187

I would look at FamilySearch for Salomon/Leah- I have not found their marriage but did not look in detail.

With regard to previous posts on Elizabeth and her burial in 1878 many records are in complete relating to the cemeteries and tombstones may have fallen over or inscriptions eroded. I can't find many of my own people in the current records but these are being added to regularly and it's a question of looking over time.

I would be very cautious relying on online family trees. I have looked at your Swart lines on these trees. There is too little data on many individuals. In the case of Moses Swart and the 2 deaths 1898 and 1903. I would ask my self the question as to why there is no record of Moses Swart post 1881 British Census.
Name changes, spelling errors on names, missing data on ship records etc all can contribute to lack of data on individuals. Again, in the case of my great grandfather who settled in South Africa I can find no record of his migration.

Given that Gabriel, Raphael, Salomon settled in USA and Ralphael changed his surname I would recommend you keep an open view on whether or not Moses remained in the UK or did go to USA.

As Pam rightly said you need the Death Certificates particularly for Moses. In his case, the informant and any occupation, address etc would help you confirm if he is your Moses.

Hi Philip (and Pam)

Thanks again for your kind reply and data.

It is sometimes very confusing to check all names and many times there are conflicting data since all inoput is from different trees in Ancestry.
Somone with gerat knowledge on Jewish families etc in City Archives Amsterdam said I should not at all use Ancesty in those cases, it is not reliable since there are no sources given and Jewish roots are hard to find there. Dutchjewry is better option, of course not for Jews born in Uk or US.
Have asked by mail to GRO for all important certificates such as for Moses so we will see.
Have a nice eveneing, talk to you again soon, best regards, Paul

[Beek1956]

Hi Philip (and Pam)

Thanks again for your kind reply and data.

It is sometimes very confusing to check all names and many times there are conflicting data since all inoput is from different trees in Ancestry.
Somone with gerat knowledge on Jewish families etc in City Archives Amsterdam said I should not at all use Ancesty in those cases, it is not reliable since there are no sources given and Jewish roots are hard to find there. Dutchjewry is better option, of course not for Jews born in Uk or US.
Have asked by mail to GRO for all important certificates such as for Moses so we will see.
Have a nice eveneing, talk to you again soon, best regards, Paul

Hi Pam and Philip, hop eyou are all well and in good health.

The question most on my mind now is: where did the Dombin family came from? Moses was married to Catherine Swart 1869 in Leeds synagoge and one Elisabeth Dombin too married there. Moses supposedly came from Russian Poland but nowhere can a city or region name be found. Since the marriage docs I have are inconclusive, in the UK they do not mention parents and place of birth, how can this be found. I was told that GRO docs are same as marriage docs I have so they do not help.
Any ideas, suggestions?
Thanks and have a great day, stay safe, best regards, Paul

[phillip]

Hi Paul
Please look at JewishGen Data base-Universal Search. You will see Iciek Dombin born 1823 and Oszer Dombin with parents Zielek and Ruchia. They are living in Golub-Dobryzyn- a town in Northern Poland.
There maybe no connection to your lines but worth checking to see if there are links. There is also a Jewish Gen family tree which has Elizabeth and Moses ( 2017 submission)with post marriage data.
With regard to the surnames there are derivations including Dembin,Dambin, Dabin which may also be relevant.
As you will appreciate the spelling and derivation of the names can vary significantly particularly when people settled in other countries and original Polish and Russian names were difficult to pronounce.

Did you register with JewishGen? If not I would recommend that you do because there are numerous data bases including Poland.

[Beek1956]

Hi Paul
Please look at JewishGen Data base-Universal Search. You will see Iciek Dombin born 1823 and Oszer Dombin with parents Zielek and Ruchia. They are living in Golub-Dobryzyn- a town in Northern Poland.
There maybe no connection to your lines but worth checking to see if there are links. There is also a Jewish Gen family tree which has Elizabeth and Moses ( 2017 submission)with post marriage data.
With regard to the surnames there are derivations including Dembin,Dambin, Dabin which may also be relevant.
As you will appreciate the spelling and derivation of the names can vary significantly particularly when people settled in other countries and original Polish and Russian names were difficult to pronounce.

Did you register with JewishGen? If not I would recommend that you do because there are numerous data bases including Poland.

Hi Philip

Hope you are in good health

Looked at Jewish Gen (on which I have account):
Golub Dobrzyn Births, Marriages, Deaths 1808-40: https://jri-poland.org/databases/jridetail_2.php
There I find the names you gave.
The family tree with marriage on Moses I could not find, sorry
So I am still searching for the family of Moses, just found Elisabeth Dombin who might be related, they both married same day in Leeds 18-08-1869
Have a nice evening, Paul

[phillip]

Hi Paul
Go onto JewishGen and the Family Trees data base-Family tree of the Jewish People. Click on the section which says I accept and wish to search the data base. Then type in Dombin surname in the section which has the surname ( use the exact spelling as a start. You will only see data post the marriage of Moses and Elizabeth. However, there is the link which allows you to contact the submitter of the family tree. The submission of the tree was 2017 so you don't know if the submitter is still researching but worth making contact.

[Beek1956]

Hi Paul
Go onto JewishGen and the Family Trees data base-Family tree of the Jewish People. Click on the section which says I accept and wish to search the data base. Then type in Dombin surname in the section which has the surname ( use the exact spelling as a start. You will only see data post the marriage of Moses and Elizabeth. However, there is the link which allows you to contact the submitter of the family tree. The submission of the tree was 2017 so you don't know if the submitter is still researching but worth making contact.

Goodmorning Philip, all well?

Thanks for this, yes I found it and yes, I contacted this person, no way of telling will get a reply. It gives more data on het husband than on her, daughter of unknown parents
Have a nice dya, regards, Paul

[Beek1956]

Goodmorning Philip, all well?

Thanks for this, yes I found it and yes, I contacted this person, no way of telling will get a reply. It gives more data on het husband than on her, daughter of unknown parents
Have a nice dya, regards, Paul

Hey Philip, hope you are in good health.

Through some US sources found the naturalisation of Moses Dombin: he arrived in New York 1881 and was granted citizenship november 15, 1897, 2 years before this he signed a declaration denouncing his sovereign the Tsar Nicolas II of Russia.
Now I found the census records of 1900/1910 and 1920 and strangely he was declared a UK citizen in 1910 and 1920 but 1900 he was Polish citizen. Have now asked for his naturalisation records so hopefully there is a mention of his birth town and maybe parents.
Some of his children were born in the UK but cannot get the right dates: Elizabeth born 1874, Rachael 1870 and a child Asher, he died in Boston 1885 age 3 but some sources say he was either born 1881 or 1882 in the UK.
So Moses in the UK never chose citizenship there although the census suggests otherwise.
Also found that there is a town in Poland called Dombin and maybe like one of my family members took the towns name for his family name?

Have agood weekend, best regards, Paul

[Pam Downes]

Hi Paul,

Go to https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/c...ates/login.asp
If you haven't already done so, you have to register to search the births and deaths indexes but it's free to search.
You'll find
Solomon 1872, Adelaide 1874,Elizabeth 1877, Wolfe 1879, Asher 1881, and Myer 1883, all with mother's maiden name of Swart.
If you want the actual birthdates then you'll either have to buy copies of the birth certificates, or hope that there's a record somewhere in the syngagogue files.

Think you might find Rachel's birth registered as Dombe, mother's maiden name Schwartz, as Whitechapel registration district matches Rachael's stated birthplace in the 1871 and 1881 census.

Pam