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  1. #21
    Super Moderator christanel's Avatar
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    Alma and Jomot have done an awful amount of work on this post and I agree with the records they have found and their sentiments expressed in their last posts. The first rule in genealogy is to keep an open mind and accept that family tales passed down can be wrong, whether deliberately altered or just romanticised for whatever reason seemed necessary at the time

    Thank you Alma and Jomot for the time and experience you have put in to this puzzle.

    Christina
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    William Burroughs

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jomot1 View Post
    Great find!

    In 1861 Samuel is at 4 Spencer St North, St George in the East, aged 17 and a Leather Dressers Assistant
    RG9 Piece 278 Folio 32 Page 27

    I think Jane may be a servant aged 52, widow, born Brompton, Kent at 133 St George Street
    RG9 Piece 280 Folio 103 page 12
    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Jackie View Post
    In 1851 Samuel is with his mother and his aunt Mary Johnston and in 1871 he is still with his mother. I haven't found him in 1861 He is married in 1872 and I have all of that information. Can you please print out that information for 1861 for either Jane or Samuel as I just looked and can't find it as it isn't on the sites I have. Thanks for your help
    I wondered why you couldn't find Samuel when Jomot had given you the census reference, but then found that the reference is actually RG9 piece 278 folio 132 page 27
    Even without the census reference, having an age and location should have been enough to track Samuel down. And would have been, had not Ancestry decided that he was 77 in the census. When the image clearly says 17.

    You should have been able to find the details for Jane without any problems using the census reference.

    To enable people to follow exactly which post you are commenting on, click 'reply with quote' which you will find in the bottom right-hand corner in the blue banner immediately under the post.
    Type your reply, and then click 'post quick reply' as normal.

    Pam
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  3. #23
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    I knew there was something niggling me when I read this thread.

    From the first post
    I have researched Samuel for 30 years and my father before that. I have found my first great grandfather's birth certificate and all census records.
    You can't say 'all' and then three sentences later basically admit you haven't found him in 1861, by saying you have him in 1851 and 1871. Can me a nit-picker, but sometimes an unfound census entry (or other record) is the one that has the vital information.
    Both birth certificate and marriage state that he is the son of Samuel John Williams, Mariner and Jane Baker.
    Samuel junior would be very far from the first person to give the wrong names or names in the wrong order on his marriage certificates.

    Samuel John Williams, Jr. was born 5 Sept 1843, St Paul Parish St George, London, Middlesex, England. I found him in the 1851 census and 1871 census with his widowed mother Jane Williams. Jane was born in 1806 and christened 17 Dec 1806 in Chatham, Kent. I have her parents, John Baker and Jane Denton and their marriage. I have Jane Denton's parents and their marriage. Samuel John Williams Jr. had nine brothers
    Do you mean Samuel senior had nine brothers? If you do, then you must know his parents.
    and I have been in contact with at least one person from each of those lines.
    There parents all tell a similar story
    that Samuel John Williams Sr was a Japanese mariner.
    So what evidence do they give for Samuel senior being a Japanese mariner? Surely if he's Japanese/part-Japanese then Samuel's nine brothers should also be part-Japanese? Are they? Where and when were they born, and what are the names of their parents?
    Did the descendants come to their conclusion independently, or did one think they'd found the evidence and then everyone automatically agreed? You only have to check out the family trees on Ancestry with the same mistakes to know that people will, and do, blindly copy anything without checking the facts for themselves.

    Or do they mean Samuel was a mariner who sailed to/lived part of his life in Japan?

    Don't forget that Williams is a very common surname, and there's probably more then one Samuel who was a mariner. Unfortunately I can't remember the surname and I can't find the entry, but I remember that back in the early days of my belonging to the forum in one census I found two families, same names, same ages, same father's occupation (painter), in different parts of London. Whilst researching my own (not that common) family name I found two Charles born in the same small village about eighteen months apart. Took some careful digging to make sure I put the correct one in my tree.

    Pam
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pam Downes View Post
    I knew there was something niggling me when I read this thread.

    From the first post

    You can't say 'all' and then three sentences later basically admit you haven't found him in 1861, by saying you have him in 1851 and 1871. Can me a nit-picker, but sometimes an unfound census entry (or other record) is the one that has the vital information.

    Samuel junior would be very far from the first person to give the wrong names or names in the wrong order on his marriage certificates.


    Do you mean Samuel senior had nine brothers? If you do, then you must know his parents.

    So what evidence do they give for Samuel senior being a Japanese mariner? Surely if he's Japanese/part-Japanese then Samuel's nine brothers should also be part-Japanese? Are they? Where and when were they born, and what are the names of their parents?
    Did the descendants come to their conclusion independently, or did one think they'd found the evidence and then everyone automatically agreed? You only have to check out the family trees on Ancestry with the same mistakes to know that people will, and do, blindly copy anything without checking the facts for themselves.

    Or do they mean Samuel was a mariner who sailed to/lived part of his life in Japan?

    Don't forget that Williams is a very common surname, and there's probably more then one Samuel who was a mariner. Unfortunately I can't remember the surname and I can't find the entry, but I remember that back in the early days of my belonging to the forum in one census I found two families, same names, same ages, same father's occupation (painter), in different parts of London. Whilst researching my own (not that common) family name I found two Charles born in the same small village about eighteen months apart. Took some careful digging to make sure I put the correct one in my tree.

    Pam
    Thanks. I have had answers from others as well. First of all, I have a birth certificate for Samuel John Wiliams Jr. that says he was born 5 Sept 1843 to Samuel John Williams, mariner and Jane Baker. I had Hunters Genealogy work for me and they found a christening record that said on 24 Dec 1843; Samuel John with parents, Williams Samuel and Jane with the last name of Baker, had a chlld born 5 Sept 1842. Obviously, I found this very confusing so I went with the birth certificate. On Samuel John Williams Jr., marriage certificate which I have, he said his father was Samuel John Williams, deceased mariner. Most of Samuel John Williams Jr's children live in England so I corresponded with some of their children or grandchildren by email. One lived in Australia and had done quite a bit of original research and had the father as Samuel John Williams but the mother who had his information and sent me the chart, died before she said where in Australia he lived. MAll the sons lived in England. Three of them died in the First World War and I have their grave information. My grandfather had an old album and yes, most of the sons had dark skin and some of the grandchild as well. The one son who wasn't as dark had slanted eyes. The picture of Samuel John Williams Sr. (also in the album) is very faint but he certainly looks oriental. I have looked at the family trees on ancestry, none of them are from any of these relatives and 3/4 of them have copied mine from family search. The 1841 census said that both Samuel and Jane Williams said they lived in that county. I have research Jane and she lived in Kent so I don't believe Samuel lived there either. I wrote the Japanese consulate and they said it was illegal from anyone to leave the country during that time so either he jumped ship, it was his father or all the family stories are incorrect. One of the sons was wearing a Japanese kimono in a picture but her granddaughter said he was actually wearing a Chinese kimono for a play. This could be where the family stories of Japanese come from as I have that picture in my album as well. Another reseacher from this forum gave an alternate theory based on the christening record but I have found nothing to back that up. Unforunately, I have a free ancestry site but none of the others and have found no more information on line so I really appreciate all that help everyone has given me.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Jackie View Post
    . Another reseacher from this forum gave an alternate theory based on the christening record but I have found nothing to back that up.
    So you haven't found the baptism of Samuel William Willams born 28 Mar 1806 baptised St Clement Danes, Westminster, 20 April 1806, son of Samuel & Mary?

    Or the William Samuel Williams baptised 19 Apr 1811 St Katharine Cree, parents Samuel Williams & Mary

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by christanel View Post
    Alma and Jomot have done an awful amount of work on this post and I agree with the records they have found and their sentiments expressed in their last posts. The first rule in genealogy is to keep an open mind and accept that family tales passed down can be wrong, whether deliberately altered or just romanticised for whatever reason seemed necessary at the time

    Thank you Alma and Jomot for the time and experience you have put in to this puzzle.

    Christina
    I agree, they have been very helpful and have made me do some heavy thinking

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pam Downes View Post
    I wondered why you couldn't find Samuel when Jomot had given you the census reference, but then found that the reference is actually RG9 piece 278 folio 132 page 27
    Even without the census reference, having an age and location should have been enough to track Samuel down. And would have been, had not Ancestry decided that he was 77 in the census. When the image clearly says 17.

    You should have been able to find the details for Jane without any problems using the census reference.

    To enable people to follow exactly which post you are commenting on, click 'reply with quote' which you will find in the bottom right-hand corner in the blue banner immediately under the post.
    Type your reply, and then click 'post quick reply' as normal.

    Pam
    I did find that 1861 census now by giving him the age of 77. Not only did the transcriber get the age wrong, they also put married when the film plainly says unmarried. Thanks

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jomot1 View Post
    So you haven't found the baptism of Samuel William Willams born 28 Mar 1806 baptised St Clement Danes, Westminster, 20 April 1806, son of Samuel & Mary?

    Or the William Samuel Williams baptised 19 Apr 1811 St Katharine Cree, parents Samuel Williams & Mary
    No. Unfortunatly, I don't have access to a lot of records only what is available through family search or the free ancestry.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by wimsey View Post
    for you to know that Samuel John Williams's wife was named Jane Baker, without a marriage record, I assume they had children with mother's maiden name Baker? Where and when was the first child born? Are Samuel, Jane + children on a census?
    Unfortunately, no. The only record I have is his birth certificate. Jane was a widow with her young son on the 1851 census

  10. #30
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    You haven't found a marriage, yet you 'know' they were married.


    There's also some evidence that 'Samuel' Sr is not oriental:


    You appear to have dismissed all of this on the basis of a photo that suggests some slight oriental features, even though DNA evidence doesn't back this up.
    (I have a 100 year old family album given to me by my grandfather who was a child of Samuel John Williams Jr. The picture of his father, Samuel John Williams has dark skin and is very oriental.)

    DNA & the census both suggest [William] Samuel wasn't oriental, yet you persist that he is based on a photograph. Maybe one of his parents or grandparents was oriental?
    (The census also stated that Jane was born there and I have found through records that she was born in Kent)
    (As for DNA, lets look again at the family album. Six of SJW Jr's sons are fair skinned, including my grandfather. One of the sons, looks very oriental and his daughter is fair skinned. The daughter of the first son is dark skinned and looks oriental. The second son has one daughter with fair skin and one with dark skin. The fourth son had five fair skinned daughters. I have one niece who is dark skinned. My son's DNA didn't mention German and my husband's grandparents were both German. The family album had names under the pictures I have mentioned but no names, unfortunately on others)

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