Alma and Jomot have done an awful amount of work on this post and I agree with the records they have found and their sentiments expressed in their last posts. The first rule in genealogy is to keep an open mind and accept that family tales passed down can be wrong, whether deliberately altered or just romanticised for whatever reason seemed necessary at the time
Thank you Alma and Jomot for the time and experience you have put in to this puzzle.
Christina
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04-02-2021, 4:23 AM #21Sometimes paranoia is just having all the facts.
William Burroughs
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04-02-2021, 5:17 AM #22
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I wondered why you couldn't find Samuel when Jomot had given you the census reference, but then found that the reference is actually RG9 piece 278 folio 132 page 27
Even without the census reference, having an age and location should have been enough to track Samuel down. And would have been, had not Ancestry decided that he was 77 in the census. When the image clearly says 17.
You should have been able to find the details for Jane without any problems using the census reference.
To enable people to follow exactly which post you are commenting on, click 'reply with quote' which you will find in the bottom right-hand corner in the blue banner immediately under the post.
Type your reply, and then click 'post quick reply' as normal.
PamVulcan XH558 - “Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.”
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04-02-2021, 6:21 AM #23
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I knew there was something niggling me when I read this thread.
From the first post
I have researched Samuel for 30 years and my father before that. I have found my first great grandfather's birth certificate and all census records.
Both birth certificate and marriage state that he is the son of Samuel John Williams, Mariner and Jane Baker.
Samuel John Williams, Jr. was born 5 Sept 1843, St Paul Parish St George, London, Middlesex, England. I found him in the 1851 census and 1871 census with his widowed mother Jane Williams. Jane was born in 1806 and christened 17 Dec 1806 in Chatham, Kent. I have her parents, John Baker and Jane Denton and their marriage. I have Jane Denton's parents and their marriage. Samuel John Williams Jr. had nine brothers
and I have been in contact with at least one person from each of those lines.
There parents all tell a similar story that Samuel John Williams Sr was a Japanese mariner.
Did the descendants come to their conclusion independently, or did one think they'd found the evidence and then everyone automatically agreed? You only have to check out the family trees on Ancestry with the same mistakes to know that people will, and do, blindly copy anything without checking the facts for themselves.
Or do they mean Samuel was a mariner who sailed to/lived part of his life in Japan?
Don't forget that Williams is a very common surname, and there's probably more then one Samuel who was a mariner. Unfortunately I can't remember the surname and I can't find the entry, but I remember that back in the early days of my belonging to the forum in one census I found two families, same names, same ages, same father's occupation (painter), in different parts of London. Whilst researching my own (not that common) family name I found two Charles born in the same small village about eighteen months apart. Took some careful digging to make sure I put the correct one in my tree.
PamVulcan XH558 - “Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.”
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05-02-2021, 6:52 PM #24
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Samuel John Williams
Thanks. I have had answers from others as well. First of all, I have a birth certificate for Samuel John Wiliams Jr. that says he was born 5 Sept 1843 to Samuel John Williams, mariner and Jane Baker. I had Hunters Genealogy work for me and they found a christening record that said on 24 Dec 1843; Samuel John with parents, Williams Samuel and Jane with the last name of Baker, had a chlld born 5 Sept 1842. Obviously, I found this very confusing so I went with the birth certificate. On Samuel John Williams Jr., marriage certificate which I have, he said his father was Samuel John Williams, deceased mariner. Most of Samuel John Williams Jr's children live in England so I corresponded with some of their children or grandchildren by email. One lived in Australia and had done quite a bit of original research and had the father as Samuel John Williams but the mother who had his information and sent me the chart, died before she said where in Australia he lived. MAll the sons lived in England. Three of them died in the First World War and I have their grave information. My grandfather had an old album and yes, most of the sons had dark skin and some of the grandchild as well. The one son who wasn't as dark had slanted eyes. The picture of Samuel John Williams Sr. (also in the album) is very faint but he certainly looks oriental. I have looked at the family trees on ancestry, none of them are from any of these relatives and 3/4 of them have copied mine from family search. The 1841 census said that both Samuel and Jane Williams said they lived in that county. I have research Jane and she lived in Kent so I don't believe Samuel lived there either. I wrote the Japanese consulate and they said it was illegal from anyone to leave the country during that time so either he jumped ship, it was his father or all the family stories are incorrect. One of the sons was wearing a Japanese kimono in a picture but her granddaughter said he was actually wearing a Chinese kimono for a play. This could be where the family stories of Japanese come from as I have that picture in my album as well. Another reseacher from this forum gave an alternate theory based on the christening record but I have found nothing to back that up. Unforunately, I have a free ancestry site but none of the others and have found no more information on line so I really appreciate all that help everyone has given me.
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05-02-2021, 7:20 PM #25
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05-02-2021, 10:23 PM #26
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05-02-2021, 10:28 PM #27
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05-02-2021, 10:30 PM #28
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05-02-2021, 10:32 PM #29
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05-02-2021, 10:45 PM #30
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You haven't found a marriage, yet you 'know' they were married.
There's also some evidence that 'Samuel' Sr is not oriental:
You appear to have dismissed all of this on the basis of a photo that suggests some slight oriental features, even though DNA evidence doesn't back this up.
(I have a 100 year old family album given to me by my grandfather who was a child of Samuel John Williams Jr. The picture of his father, Samuel John Williams has dark skin and is very oriental.)
DNA & the census both suggest [William] Samuel wasn't oriental, yet you persist that he is based on a photograph. Maybe one of his parents or grandparents was oriental?
(The census also stated that Jane was born there and I have found through records that she was born in Kent)
(As for DNA, lets look again at the family album. Six of SJW Jr's sons are fair skinned, including my grandfather. One of the sons, looks very oriental and his daughter is fair skinned. The daughter of the first son is dark skinned and looks oriental. The second son has one daughter with fair skin and one with dark skin. The fourth son had five fair skinned daughters. I have one niece who is dark skinned. My son's DNA didn't mention German and my husband's grandparents were both German. The family album had names under the pictures I have mentioned but no names, unfortunately on others)
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