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  1. #21
    Super Moderator - Completely bonkers and will never change.
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    Looks like clerical error in the marriage register to me.
    One of my great-grandfathers was born before his (presumed) parents married but was baptised on the day they married and presumably after they married as he was given his father's surname. However, from the 1861 census onwards he used his mother's name as his surname with his father's name as a middle name. I wondered if a similar thing happened with John, but he was definitely born after his parents married.
    I haven't yet checked further back with Charles but if he is always referred to as Turner then it's definitely clerical error.

    You need to refine the way you record your census references. You need to write them as I did with a folio and page number, for the years 1851-1901 inclusive. 1841 also includes a book number after the piece number, while 1911 uses a different format which I suspect the 1921 census will also follow. Schedule numbers are of no help except in the 1911 where it forms part of the actual reference.
    A little more about the census.
    https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/...s-for-censuses
    Scroll down in particular to paragraph 11.

    The full 1911 census reference for John and Sarah is RG14PN7704 RG78PN380 RD140 SD2 ED6 SN389, but fortunately the middle section refers to the enumerators' books, registration districts, etc, so it can be shortened to RG14/7704 SN389.

    The reason I asked for census references for ease of searching was shown by the 1901 census. Had I been searching for Sarah, even with her name, age, place of birth, and town where she was living I would never have found her because both Findmypast and Ancestry have her age transcribed as 50 when it should be 30.
    RG13/1404 folio 90 page 23.

    1871 census is RG10/2710 folio 66 page 3.
    1881 census for John and some of his siblings is RG11/1527 folio 75 page 23. Note that mum and elder sister Emma are on the previous page so their census reference is RG11/1527 folio 74 page 22.

    Pam
    Vulcan XH558 - “Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.”

  2. #22
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    Thank you.
    I'm sorry, I had no clue where I was finding these ref details. Didn't know how to look for them myself.

    So the thinking is that Charles' name on the marriage certificate just lacked the 'Turner' name on the end?
    And Ephraim could have died but maybe wasn't registered?
    I personally think that if he was a clerical error for Sarah Ann, they wouldn't have added 'son'.

    My nan for many years used her middle name instead of her first name. I wondered if this was the case for Ephraim, but I couldn't see how that could be the case when he just wasn't on any other censuses etc. Perhaps he was retarded in some way and went to live in an institution? I haven't checked those.
    And I don't understand why Sarah Ann wasn't on the 1871 census with her family.

    Thank you for your help.

  3. #23
    Growing old Disgracefully
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    looking at other trees on Ancestry 1 persons tree has Sarah Ann and Ephraim down as twins but no infomation appart from 1871 census with Ephraim.

    Also they all have taken/connected to ancestry Trees which to me is a nono I person puts in the wrong info on a tree all other trees that connect to that tree have it wrong.

  4. #24
    Super Moderator - Completely bonkers and will never change.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilbertlouise View Post
    Thank you.
    I'm sorry, I had no clue where I was finding these ref details. Didn't know how to look for them myself.
    So, do you know how to find the reference numbers now?
    The quickest way is just to look at the transcription for the family because all the details are given there. The year 'code' (e.g. RG9 for 1861), the piece number and the page number are always on the image, while the folio number is either on the image page or the previous one.
    So the thinking is that Charles' name on the marriage certificate just lacked the 'Turner' name on the end?
    My personal thinking is that the vicar wrote Allen instead of Turner. I think John's brother was Charles Richard, and if John was under the impression that his brother as named after his father he assumed that his father had two forenames, not just one. Or he could have thought that his father did have three forenames, and so, yes, the vicar did omit to write Turner after those names.
    And Ephraim could have died but maybe wasn't registered?
    I personally think that if he was a clerical error for Sarah Ann, they wouldn't have added 'son'.

    My nan for many years used her middle name instead of her first name. I wondered if this was the case for Ephraim, but I couldn't see how that could be the case when he just wasn't on any other censuses etc. Perhaps he was retarded in some way and went to live in an institution? I haven't checked those.
    And I don't understand why Sarah Ann wasn't on the 1871 census with her family.

    Thank you for your help.
    Sarah Ann, IMO, isn't on the 1871 census simply because for some reason the enumerator wrote Ephram/Ehraim in error instead of Sarah/Sarah Ann. And if he wrote a boy's name I'm sure he's likely to automatically write 'son'. As previously said, IMO, Ephram/Ephraim existed only in the enumerator's census book.

    Pam
    Vulcan XH558 - “Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.”

  5. #25
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    I restarted my tree for separate research. Also that way, hints may appear which may not be with different info.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pam Downes View Post
    So, do you know how to find the reference numbers now?
    The quickest way is just to look at the transcription for the family because all the details are given there. The year 'code' (e.g. RG9 for 1861), the piece number and the page number are always on the image, while the folio number is either on the image page or the previous one.

    My personal thinking is that the vicar wrote Allen instead of Turner. I think John's brother was Charles Richard, and if John was under the impression that his brother as named after his father he assumed that his father had two forenames, not just one. Or he could have thought that his father did have three forenames, and so, yes, the vicar did omit to write Turner after those names.
    [QUOTE[And Ephraim could have died but maybe wasn't registered?
    I personally think that if he was a clerical error for Sarah Ann, they wouldn't have added 'son'.

    My nan for many years used her middle name instead of her first name. I wondered if this was the case for Ephraim, but I couldn't see how that could be the case when he just wasn't on any other censuses etc. Perhaps he was retarded in some way and went to live in an institution? I haven't checked those.
    And I don't understand why Sarah Ann wasn't on the 1871 census with her family.

    Thank you for your help.
    Sarah Ann, IMO, isn't on the 1871 census simply because for some reason the enumerator wrote Ephram/Ehraim in error instead of Sarah/Sarah Ann. And if he wrote a boy's name I'm sure he's likely to automatically write 'son'. As previously said, IMO, Ephram/Ephraim existed only in the enumerator's census book.

    Pam[/QUOTE]

    I'm getting there lol...Thank you for your help. My Granddad Edward Green was a twin and there are others on the tree and so there is a curiosity.
    I appreciate your thoughts

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