help with Great Great Grand Mother

[colin1966]

Hi

I am after some help tracing a marriage certificate and death certificate for a Sarah Fisher
she is in the 1871 census aged 27 married to John Fisher in Dudley Port. Piece number 2999 folio 57 page 49.
I am unable to find a marriage certificate
they have 3 children
Joseph born 1871
John Thomas born 1872
William born 1873

her husband John Fisher marries Charlotte Tolley 2 Nov 1874 in St Pauls Tipton his condition is widower on the marriage certificate

John fisher and Charlotte are in the 1881 census and have John Thomas and William living with them Piece 2864 Folio 121 page 37

I believe Joseph is living with his grand parents Reynolds 1881 census Piece number 2863 Folio 105 page 44

I do have a death cert for a Sarah Ann Fisher who died in Dudley in 1873 death quarter 4
volume 6C page 25 but under occupation it has wife of William Fisher Labourer so I dont think its her.

thanks for your help

[suemalings]

There is a John Fisher marrying a Sarah Ann Turner Dudley Sept. Qtr 1869. Ref 6c 29

On the 1881 census it states that William and John were born "on the canal" There is an entry on the 1871 for John and Sarah which shows John's occupation as a boatman. As the children were born on the canal it could mean that Sarah's death was not registered in Staffordshire. The death could have been registered in the county she died.

[Pam Downes]

Hello Colin1966, and welcome to British-Genealogy.

You seem very well organised, so I'm assuming that you have the birth certificate of at least one of the three children which says that their mother is Sarah Fisher nee Reynolds, and are not relying purely on the indexes on the GRO's own website.
That would fit with eldest son Joseph being with the Reynolds, who had a daughter Sarah of the right age, in 1881.

Like you, I can't find a marriage between a John Fisher and a Sarah Ann Reynolds. There is the possibility that Sarah could have been a widow when she married John. Findmypast have datasets for Staffordshire baptisms, marriages, and burials. I don't know how complete they are with the parishes (sorry, but Staffordshire is not a county I'm familiar with).https://www.
findmypast.co.uk/articles/staffordshire-parish-records-coverage

Regarding the 1873 death certificate (a) where did the death occur - Dudley town/parish itself, or Dudley registration district and (b) who registered the death?

Pam

[Megan Roberts]

Sarah Ann Reynolds was living with her parents in the 1861 census Piece 2041 Folio 86 Page 11, so therefore we assume that she and John Fisher got together between 1861 and 1871 when their son John was born.

There does not appear to be a marriage in England and Wales between a John Fisher and a Sarah (Ann) Reynolds in that period of time. However like suemalings I found the marriage of a John Fisher and a Sarah Ann Turner in Dudley in 1869 when I search for marriages between John Fisher and a Sarah in the years 1861-1871 in the Dudley region, and that was the only one. So I then wondered, could she have been married previously, because she would then marry under her married name not her maiden name.

The only marriage in England and Wales that comes close is in 1867 between a Sarah Ann Reynolds to one of Joseph Hanson Carter or Benjamin Turner, but it takes place in Wakefield. Now it is perfectly possible that she had gone there in service, met someone, he died, she returned home, and married someone else.

The only way to know for certain would be to purchase one or more of the certificates, but that could get expensive. Online there is a transcript of the Fisher/Turner marriage but that seems to indicate that there was no father listed for Sarah Ann Turner, which I think would rule her out as a candidate for being Sarah Ann Reynolds.

Turning now to her death, the only death that seems to fit is the one that you have found. Who registered it? Could they have made a mistake?

Her son's birth was registered as William Henry Fisher in the 3rd quarter of that year, and its possible that people got confused, and made mistakes. I have got certificates with the wrong names on them, that I know are correct. For instance one of my gt grandmothers is sometime Eliza, other times Elizabeth Catherine, depending upon who registered a child's birth, and on one of the certificates her maiden name is incorrect, but it is her because everything else is right.

[almach]

Hello Colin and welcome to Brit-Gen.

I've been looking at your query and here's a possible scenario.

When John Fisher married Charlotte Tolley he names his father Joseph

The John Fisher aged 21 who married in Dudley 27 Sep 1869, to Sarah Ann Turner, also names his father Joseph, Sarah Ann is aged 23 (Taken from a marriage transcription)

The children of John and Phoebe Reynolds appear to have MMN TURNER

REYNOLDS, THOMAS TURNER
GRO Reference: 1859 M Quarter in DUDLEY Volume 06C Page 39

REYNOLDS, MARY ANN TURNER
GRO Reference: 1854 D Quarter in DUDLEY Volume 06C Page 20

REYNOLDS, JOHN TURNER
GRO Reference: 1861 S Quarter in DUDLEY Volume 06C Page 38

There is a marriage in Dudley Dec qrt 1846 with a John Reynolds and Phebe[sic] Turner on the same page.

Therefore, a possibility is Sarah Ann was born before John Reynolds and Phoebe Turner married and may not be John Reynolds daughter. Did you find a birth registration for Sarah Ann? My guess is Sarah Ann would have been registered with the surname TURNER.

[colin1966]

Hi Sue
thanks for your help
yes a lot of my relatives were born and worked on the canal. I did try looking further afield but couldnt find anything but i will have another look today.

thanks Colin

[colin1966]

Hi Pam & Megan
thanks for your help
I have all three birth certificates for the three sons each Sais mothers maiden name Reynolds. As for Joseph Fisher I think I have seen him in a 1891 census as a grandson of the Reynolds but his name is down as Joseph Reynolds.
I think its a possibility that Sarah may have been a widow when she married John I am going to order marriage certificate for John Fisher and Sarah Ann Turner just to see if it is them. This has stumped me for a couple of years so I need to close every avenue.
The death certificate I have for a Sarah Ann Fisher 6C page 25
When and where died - 25 Nov 1873 Dudley Port
age 30
Death in Tipton Registration District Dudley County of Stafford
Wife of William Fisher Labourer
signature Discription and residence of Informant - Phebe Dunn Present at Death Bell Street Tipton

just as another note there is another Sarah Fisher living in Dudley Port in the 1871 Census RG10 piece number 3000 Folio 25 Page 45
She is a shop keeper with 2 sons aged 30 in the census

I was thinking maybe John and Sarah were never married perhaps she was pregnant with Joseph when he met her? Hence the reason Joseph went to live with his grand parents? that said would John have had to prove that he was a widower to get married in a church to get married to Charlotte ?

I would like to get to the bottom of it as Sarah is my actual Great Great Grandmother
hopefully all the above makes sense

thanks for your help everybody

Sorry I can only come online during the day so I am not ignoring you in the evenings



Colin

[Megan Roberts]

would John have had to prove that he was a widower to get married in a church to get married to Charlotte ?




Colin

The simple answer to that is no.

Where it might have got complicated is if you lived in a small place where every one knew you!

I doubt that most people even bother to purchase copies of certificates when they registered events, so they would not know if the information was recorded correctly. The reason I say that is that as today there was a charge for each certificate so what did they need them for? My grandparents just got a receipt for the birth of their youngest son in the 1930s - it doesn't even give his name, just says that my grandfather registered the birth of a boy!

The other thing is that before divorce was cheap and easy, bigamy was common - I have a good book on the subject, but unfortunately I lent it out just before lock down to someone who is still isolating! But one of her ancestors married in the later 1830s in Blackburn, and was then transported to Tasmania in the mid 1840s, but at about the same time his wife married someone else a couple of parishes away describing herself as a widow.. But actually when you tracked the story, they had separated by 1841, and she was back living with her father (on the canal) under her maiden name.

[Jomot1]

I think that the suggestion that Sarah Ann Reynolds was born as Sarah Ann Turner is correct.

In 1881 when Joseph Fisher is with his Reynolds grandparents, the birth registrations of the Reynolds children present confirm their mmn as TURNER.

As has been said, John REYNOLDS married Phebe TURNER on 25 Dec 1846, so by the 1851 census they had been married less than 5 years, but Sarah Ann is already aged 7 - HO107 2029 162 42

[Megan Roberts]

As has been said, John REYNOLDS married Phebe TURNER on 25 Dec 1846, so by the 1851 census they had been married less than 5 years, but Sarah Ann is already aged 7 - HO107 2029 162 42

Hi Jomot1

Where did you find the marriage date?

I can only find the marriage indexes.