Fisher/Fish familyfrom Thorley, Hertfordshire

[Gfishere]

Hi All

My name is Graham Fisher and I am from Perth, Western Australia.

I am looking for information about my family who came to Australia in 1856. My Great Great Grand parents were Benjamin and Rachel Fisher(nee Warden). My problem though is I think Benjamin changed his name from Fish to Fisher and I was hoping someone on these forums could help me prove this.

Benjamin was born 13 August 1820 Thorley, Hertfordshire
Rachel was born 8 December 1814 Windsor, Berkshire

They were married 10 January 1843 Islington, Middlesex. The marriage certificate lists Benjamin as Fisher.

They came to Australia on two ships

FROM THE PORT OF LONDON TO SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES, 22ND SEPT. 1856 ON THE "PORTLAND"
Surname Given name Station Age
FISHER Benjamin MR 36
FISHER Clara MISS 8
FISHER Elizabeth MISS 5
FISHER Sarah MISS 3
FISHER William MASTER 11
FISHER George MASTER 7

FROM THE PORT OF LONDON TO SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES, 19TH DECEMBER 1856 ON THE WAVE OF LIFE
FISHER Rachel MRS 42
FISHER John SON 2

If I have got the right person then Benjamin's parents were William Fish 1769 - 1825 and Mary Moore 1773 - 1845

William's parents Richard Fish 1737 - 1792 and Lydia Barker 1738 - 1797

Richard's parents Joseph Fish 1690 - 1746 and Ann Eggleston 1702 - 1757

Joseph's parents John Fish 1651 - 1715 and Eleanor Bowtell 1656 -1719

Just hoping someone can help me with the name change. Would there have been any formal documentation completed to initiate a name change at that time.

Cheers
Graham

[Lesley Robertson]

Welcome to the British Genealogy Forum, Graham.
I have moved your message from Surname Interests as that forum is only intended for the registration of an interest in a name, and the messages get locked, preventing replies. Since you have mentioned 3 different counties, it is now in the General English forum. This actually only affects the visibility of your query once people stop answering on your thread and it scrolls out of Today's Messages.

It is possible that The change of name was purely clerical. In those days, when literacy was low, minor changes in names were common. Someone would speak their name and the Minister or clerk would write what they heard. It would rarely occur to ask if he spelling was correct!

[Gfishere]

Thanks Lesley

[Megan Roberts]

What leads you to the conclusion that he changed his name?

Depending upon who he was and what he did it's unlikely that he would have need of any documentary evidence of a name change. People didn't have the need to have documentary evidence of their original identity.

[Gfishere]

What leads you to the conclusion that he changed his name?

Depending upon who he was and what he did it's unlikely that he would have need of any documentary evidence of a name change. People didn't have the need to have documentary evidence of their original identity.

Thanks for your response Megan. I have a family tree on Myheritage (free Version) and I contacted a lady from Reading, UK whom I thought I was related to. It turned out we weren't related and she looked on Ancestry and got back to me to tell me that she thought my family name was actually Fish and not Fisher. I was very sceptical at first but based on the information I was given from this lady I entered some of the Fish ancestors in my tree and got smart matches. I wrote to two of the people who had matches and one was a lady who lives near Perth in Western Australia.
I met her and her husband who is a descendant of a William Fish who was transported to Australia in 1820 as a convict. This lady had been doing her husband's family tree (Fisher) and had realised that his family had also changed their name from Fish to Fisher.

I now think that my GG Grandfather did change his surname but i would still like some proof if possible hence my post here. So I hope that you can help me.

Cheers
Graham

[Megan Roberts]

Graham,

Having looked at the marriage certificate of Benjamin and Rachel, which is available on Ancestry, I think that your wrong to assume that he was Benjamin Fish baptised in 1820 at Thorley in Hertfordshire for the following reasons.

1. The father of Benjamin Fish in Thorley was a labourer.

2. Your Benjamin was a baker, and his father William was a butcher. Further your Benjamin was literate - he signed his marriage certificate, which means that it is very unlikely that he was the son of a labourer. Not impossible, but unlikely. Equally its not impossible that a labourer could have been an farm labourer who practised a bit of butchery on the side.

3. I accept that the 1851 Census states that he came from Thorley, but that does not mean that he had to be baptised there. There is a baptism about the right time in 1819 to a William and Sarah Fisher at Knebworth, which is about 30 miles away. That William was also a labourer.

4. Sometimes, frustratingly you cannot find a baptism at all.

Where his parents named on his death certificate in Australia, because I know that some of those certificates name the mothers as well.

Have you tried finding him or his father in the 1841 census?

Sorry to be unconstructive.

[Gfishere]

I haven’t got a copy of his death certificate but on the births deaths and marriages site for nsw his parents are listed as William and Mary as to the 1841 census I haven’t tried finding him there.

[Megan Roberts]

Graham,

I may need to eat humble pie!

Whilst children have never had to be baptised, we can be more sure, if not 100 per certain, that their parents were married, and in early of the 19th century that would have had to have taken place in the parish church.

A new marriage act was passed in 1836 which changed things but before it was off to the parish church. The only drawback being that the marriage records don't list the bride and grooms parents.

So anyway I did a search of Hertfordshire marriages 20 years either side of 1800 for a William Fisher/Fish and a Mary - Findmypast has their parish records. I got two possibles:

16 Oct 1793 Marriage between William FISH and Mary Moore both of Thorley parish – both single – both made their mark

20 Nov 1813 Marriage between William FISHER and Mary Kitchener both of Ardley parish – both single – both made their mark


For the second couple there are no children baptised in Ardley, and there is no son Benjamin baptised by them in any Hertfordshire parish. I have also been unable to locate them in the 1841 census.

Turning to the first couple William Fish and Mary Moore:

Their children they had baptised were -
William 1797
John 1799
George 1801
Mary 1803
Sarah 1806
Harries 1808
James 1809
Thomas 1812
Richard 1813
Elizabeth 1818
Benjamin 1820

23 Aug 1825 William FISH aged 56 buried Thorley

So Benjamin would have been fatherless when he was 5 years old.

In 1841 Mary FISH was a 67 Pauper living in Thorley – piece 435 book 1 folio 5 Page 5. She was the only person named either Fish or Fisher living in Thorley.

I suspect that all the children would have sent off to work at a very young age - I've seen agricultural labourers who were 6 years old, and its possible that Benjamin may have been sent to a baker to learn the trade, and that's where he learnt to read and write, and his name changed - just me guessing.

In 1841 I think that Benjamin was working at Highbury Barn Tavern, St Mary Islington, Middlesex, as a baker – piece 664, book 13, folio 22, page 7

28 Jan 1858 Mary FISH aged 84 buried Thorley


I hope this helps a little.

[Gfishere]

Thanks again Megan for pursuing this for me. Mary Moore was the mother of Benjamin and all the details you have given me line up with what I have so I am pretty sure that this is his family, however, I was just looking for some conclusive evidence that Benjamin did change his name. As you have stated before there wasn’t any need to have documentation if there was a change of name but anyway thanks again for all that you have done in pursuing this matter.

Cheers
Graham

[Megan Roberts]

Graham

I do like a conundrum, and we are still largely locked down over here, and in the last few days there has been quite a bit of rain and thunder, so it’s a good time to try and ferret out information!

Since my last post I’ve been having a think about whether or not there is another way to approach the problem, and I wondered about all his siblings, and what did they do? So I had a look around and I think that almost all his brothers did not change their names, but I can’t be 100 % certain as the names are quite common.

I then decided to look have a look at Ancestry’s family trees to see if they have any clues. I always approach these with caution, because most don’t have any sources There are lots of trees (41) featuring Benjamin Fish born 1820 in Thorley, and they all say he died in 1865 in Bishop’s Stortford, Hertfordshire.

I think that they have probably all copied one another, because few have any sources, but there is a corresponding death registration of a 48 year old Benjamin Fish there in that year. However, I think this may be a case of joining of unconnected dots.

From reviewing these trees it seems to me this individual’s identification (and death) is based on initially identifying a 22 year old Benjamin Fish in 1841 Census working as a servant in a parish called Sawbridgeworth, which is near Bishop’s Stortford, and then in the 1861 Census a 40 year old Benjamin Fish in the same parish. However, in the 1861 census that person says that he was born in the parish of Little Hadham, so I don’t think that it can be Benjamin Fish who was born in Thorley. A Benjamin Fish was baptised in 1817 in Little Hadham, and therefore it seems to me that he must be the Benjamin Fish who died in 1865 in Bishop’s Stortford.

If you want to see how these parishes are related to one another you can search for them on this Gazetter: https://www.genuki.org.uk/gazetteer

I don’t know whether you are able to access Ancestry to look at these trees, but if you don’t access perhaps your local library might have. Certainly in the UK libraries can provide access to the major genealogy sites.

The really interesting bit is that one of these trees has undertaken DNA testing, so that might be a route to consider. It’s the “North Knott Family Tree”, and the tree owner is a lady called Debra Edwards, who is in Sydney. Her tree, which has a few inconsistencies, shows that the William Fish transported in 1820, was in fact Benjamin’s brother. One of the inconsistencies is that she has William born in Thorley, but baptised 5 years later in Dorset. I suspect that is something that has been plucked from Ancestry’s database who presumably do not have access to Hertfordshire’s parish records.

The Conditional Pardon issued to the convict William Fish (pardon number 42/160) says that he came from Thorley, Hertfordshire and was aged 43 (in 1841). He was pardoned on condition that he stayed within the limits of NSW.

Anyway I hope there is some new information for you in this, and whilst it may not give total certainty of when Benjamin's name change occurred, if you can prove conclusively a link to the convict William Fish, then you can know with certainty that you have right family, and just know that name changed for what ever reason, as many family names have done over the passage of time.

Megan