Benjamin Guyatt b1822/3 Pancras

[chantilly]

Hi, I'm new to this group and would be grateful for any help in knocking down a brickwall I've had for many years. I'll try to keep this as brief as possible as it is rather confusing.

My 3x Great Grandfather was Benjamin Guyatt, b1822/3 according to censuses and born in Pancras. I haven't been able to find a birth/baptism record to confirm this, neither can I find any information on who his parents were. He fathered seven children with Elizabeth Thurston (b 1820) but again, there is no record of his marriage to Elizabeth. But this is where it all gets confusing. I HAVE been able to find a record of a marriage between Elizabeth Thurston and a GEORGE Guyatt in 1835 (making Elizabeth about 15/16 at time of marriage) and they had one child together, Elizabeth Eleanor b1839. Elizabeth Jr appears on the 1861 census staying or living in Benjamin's household although she is listed as Elizabeth Guyatt despite her having married a William Clark two years previously. And guess what? the witnesses at Elizabeth Jrs. marriage were Benjamin & Elizabeth Guyatt but father on MC is George Guyatt.

Benjamin and Elizabeth also appear as witnesses to a marriage between Thomas William Samuel Guyatt and Amelia Buckland in 1852 but I can't find any evidence of a relationship between Thomas and Benjamin/Elizabeth.

My record for Elizabeth's death is for 1869 yet George Guyatt remarried in 1864 and he has described himself as a widower.

My theory, and it is only a theory, is that George & Elizabeth were married and had child Elizabeth. They split up shortly after this and Elizabeth gets with Benjamin (maybe brother or cousin perhaps?) and has 7 more children. Whether or not Elizabeth's relationship with Benjamin was the cause of the marriage split remains to be discovered.

The only records I've been able to find for Benjamin are 1851, 1861 and 1871 censuses and death record in 1881. I'm missing 1841 census and birth/baptism/marriage records. I also can't find any record of Elizabeth Thurston besides these censuses and her marriage to George. Again, no birth/baptism or details of parents.

I'm afraid I've become rather fixed in my mind as to the story behind this so would welcome others' points of view as to what the circumstances could possibly be and how I would go about demolishing this wall of mine!

I should've said that in my searches, I have tried to include all the many versions of the name Guyatt I could think of - gyatt, gyat, guyett, guyott, etc.

Thanks in advance.

[christanel]

Hello and welcome to the British-Genealogy forums.
I see that the witnesses at the marriage of George Guyatt and Elizabeth Thurston were a John Guyatt and Martha Guyatt. Do you know anything about these two?
Sorry have to leave this for a while.
Christona

[christanel]

I HAVE been able to find a record of a marriage between Elizabeth Thurston and a GEORGE Guyatt in 1835 (making Elizabeth about 15/16 at time of marriage) and they had one child together, Elizabeth Eleanor b1839.

I used FreeBMD to look for the birth of Elizabeth Eleanor 1837-1841 and using G*y*t for the surname. I got three results but all without a middle name/initial.
Then I used this information and the spellings of each individual surname On the GRO index to determine the mother's maiden name.
Elizabeth Guyatt birth registered Dec 1/4 1837 registration district Depwade Union vol 13 page 33 mother's maiden name Blomfield
Elizabeth Guyatt registered September 1/4 1839 Romford Union vol 12 page 207 mother's maiden name Pulford
Elizabeth Gyatt (no 'u') September 1/4 1839 Guildford Union vol 4 page 150 mother's maiden name Chandler.
Where did you find the birth details for Elizabeth Eleanor? I know that some births weren't registered as it wasn't compulsory until 1874 so young Elizabeth's may not have been registered.
Is it the baptism record you have for Elizabeth? I see george the father is a bootmaker as was Benjamin.
1861 census you say Elizabeth E is in the household of Benjamin Gyatt as Elizabeth Clark even though she had married William Clark in 1859 and I presume this is their first child
Elizabeth Amelia Clark
GRO Reference: 1859 Dec 1/4 ST GILES Vol 1b Page 412 mmn Guyatt

So can this be them in 1861 census
RG 9 Piece 101 Folio 38 Page 69
3 Pitt? St Tottenham Court St Pancras
William Clark 28 (can't decipher his occupation) St Giles Middlesex
Elizabeth Clark 22 (can't decipher her occupation)Lambeth Surrey
Elizabeth Clark 1 St Pancras
Mary Clark 2 months St Pancras

Could Benjamin have not understood what he was being asked and included Elizabeth as a usual household member or she was there on the night and her husband made the mistake of including her in his household.

The 1871 census doesn't actually record the first names of Elizabeth and Benjamin, just the surname written as Gayatt.
Christina

[almach]

Elizabeth Jr appears on the 1861 census staying or living in Benjamin's household although she is listed as Elizabeth Guyatt despite her having married a William Clark two years previously. And guess what? the witnesses at Elizabeth Jrs. marriage were Benjamin & Elizabeth Guyatt but father on MC is George Guyatt.

I wonder if Elizabeth with Benjamin and his wife Elizabeth is a different Elizabeth to the one who married William Clark as she seems to be with William in 1861.

The marriage describes William Clark as a cane worker and in 1861 there's a William Clark cane worker with wife Elizabeth and two children RG 9; Piece: 101; Folio: 38; Page: 69. One child has no name entered, the other is Mary 2 months. There's this birth which fits

CLARK, MARY ANN, Mother's maiden name GUYATT
GRO Reference: 1861 J Quarter in PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 32

[almach]

Here's the child unnamed on the census.

CLARK, ELIZABETH AMELIA, MMN GUYATT
GRO Reference: 1859 D Quarter in ST GILES Volume 01B Page 412

Another child born to the couple

CLARK, SOPHIA GUYATT
GRO Reference: 1862 S Quarter in PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 31

[christanel]

The two younger Elizabeth Guyatts on the 1861 census intrigued me so I went looking for the one who I found with William Clarke in the 1861 census age 22 so this is her birth reg I would think Dec 1/4 1839 Guyatt Female, mother's maiden name Thurston vol 4 page 211 Lambeth. So her age is correct for the one with William Clarke in 1861 but the one age 20 with Benjamin is short a couple of years but that is no big deal.
None of this helps with a marriage for Benjamin Guyatt and Elizabeth Thurston
Christina

[almach]

Christina, I've just seen I have repeated some of your information, I thought I'd read fully your post, seems not! Oops, sorry.

William Clark 28 (can't decipher his occupation) St Giles Middlesex
Elizabeth Clark 22 (can't decipher her occupation)Lambeth Surrey

The occupations are William - cane worker, and Elizabeth - boot closer.

[christanel]

Christina, I've just seen I have repeated some of your information, I thought I'd read fully your post, seems not! Oops, sorry.

No worries Alma I need all the reassurance I can get to confirm i am on the right track.

Christina

[almach]

I wish I could help more, Christina, but not for the want of trying I cannot find any records for Benjamin pre 1851, or Elizabeth with daughter Elizabeth in 1841.

[christanel]

I keep picking little bits of info from the first post such as this

Benjamin and Elizabeth also appear as witnesses to a marriage between Thomas William Samuel Guyatt and Amelia Buckland in 1852 but I can't find any evidence of a relationship between Thomas and Benjamin/Elizabeth.

1851 census HO107 Piece 1494 Folio 618 Page 19
19 Pancras St Tottenham Court, Pancras
George Guyatt 51 boot closer Middlesex, City.
Thomas Guyatt 21 nephew boot closer Middlesex, City

So a George Guyatt is on the scene but again I can't get either of them further back. What is it with this family? Glad you are also looking Alma, if nothing else it shows I am not missing anything (yet!)

Christina