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  1. #1
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    Default Norwich Cohen interfaith marriage 1839

    I’ve reached a brick wall and am posting here in the vain hope someone might be able to shed some light.

    My gg grandfather was Joseph Lewis Cohen b.1816 in Lambeth who married Charlotte Gant about 1839 before having a number of children baptised in Norwich in 1841. I can find them on 1851 census.

    However, I cannot find a marriage certificate or birth certificates for either. I do know their first son Emmanuel Lewis continued in his fathers Letter Cutting trade.

    Charlotte has her birth listed as Briston / Wood Norton but I’ve not found a trace there in the parish records.

    Any assistance would be gratefully received,

    Kind regards
    Chris

  2. #2

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    The first child registered appears to be Sarah Ann Cohen in 1839 and it maybe that any marriage was pre civil registration in July 1837.There would be no birth certificate for Joseph given his Jewish birth and dob both pre 1837 civil registrations. The same applies to Charlotte dob pre 1837 civil registration.There maybe a baptism record for Charlotte and possibly a Synagogue record for Joseph but in the case of Joseph such records are very rare. I will look further on the Jewish records for Joseph.
    Phillip-Jewish,British Ancestry

    "The only true dead are those who have been forgotten"

  3. #3

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    I know from your Rootsweb site postings several years ago that you have raised the same questions regarding Joseph and Charlotte. There were also a range of replies regarding your searches including the issue regarding Joseph wanting to be buried in a Jewish ceremony.

    Did you follow up on any of the advice you received from the Rootsweb postings?

    I am aware from my own Jewish lines that marrying out of the Jewish Customs was not usual but did occur. However, in many cases families could respond harshly. I have read several wills where the father stipulates that any child or grand child marrying a gentile would receive no bequest. I have this in my own lines.
    The newspaper response to Joseph seeking a Jewish burial in Norwich is not surprising.
    The issue is whether or not Joseph and Charlotte actually married and it maybe that they did not.
    There is nothing on Synagogue Scribes records for Joseph and a possible birth. There is the 1851 Anglo Jewry data base - JewishGen for Joseph but too few details and nothing about his parents.
    It is also possible that Joseph was not born in the UK inspite of the Lambeth reference but this would be difficult to prove.
    In the case of Charlotte I wonder what her parents/family though about her marriage to a Jew? This maybe another reason for no marriage record. These are issues which make it difficult to trace records if in fact they exist.
    Phillip-Jewish,British Ancestry

    "The only true dead are those who have been forgotten"

  4. #4
    Super Moderator christanel's Avatar
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    Hi
    Looking at the 1851 census the children's ages are Sarah Ann 11, Emmanuel 10, Leon 5, Henry 3. There is a large gap between Emmanuel and Leon. So I thought it may have been possible that this was not the first marriage for both Charlotte and Joseph. The children would show as the sons/daughters of Joseph as Head but no relationship given to Charlotte.
    So I went looking for the marriage of a Joseph Cohen on FreeBMD c 1839 which is when Sarah Ann's birth was registered on the GRO index with the mother's surname as Gant.
    In the September 1/4 1839 there is a marriage of a Joseph Cohen registration district London vol 2 page 186B. London is in italics and this is because FreeBMD says "The page number is not within the range expected for the district. Note that there a number of possible reasons for this, including an error in the district, the page, the volume, the date or the type of entry."
    Now there are 4 male entries on this page but only three female entries so I went looking for the missing female entry using only the first name Charlotte, the Sept 1/4 and the registration district London.
    From all of the entries I found a Charlotte Ellis Sept 1/4 1839 London vol 2 page 186E Again London was in italics.
    Clicking on the specs icon the original printed image the E of the page number actually meets up on the centre vertical dividing line so could be a B. Joseph's entry is definitely a B.
    So could Charlotte Gant have been married previously and was married in her previous married surname (which was the norm)
    Something to look at?
    Christina

    Ah good, Phillip is on the case.
    Sometimes paranoia is just having all the facts.
    William Burroughs

  5. #5
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    Thanks for your replies, both.

    It had occurred to me that the answers might lie in unusual circumstances
    1841 census shows Charlotte Co(h)en with Sarah 2 and Emmanuel 1 at Buff Coat Lane but not Joseph
    None of the 1841 census possibles for Joseph are convincing..
    I also saw Samuel Enoch baptised to single parent a Charlotte Gant 1825 and then infant burial 1829
    I did see a marriage Charlotte Gant to John Smith in St Edmunds Norwich 9/5/1831
    And did just find a Timberhill residence record for 1857 next to Simon Caro who I think was the Jewish minister?
    A newspaper clipping I found from 1859 on Joseph’s deaths refers to him marrying a Christian woman 20 years ago but wanting to be buried in a Jewish cemetery, which does point to 1839 marriage

    Kind regards
    Chris

  6. #6
    Super Moderator - Completely bonkers and will never change.
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    I'm probably not adding any further knowledge but there are the following birth registrations, all in Norwich registration district, all with mother's maiden name of Gant.

    Sarah Ann, December quarter 1839
    Lewis Emanuel, June quarter 1841
    Levina, September quarter 1842
    Leon Cohen, September quarter 1845
    Louisa, March quarter 1844
    Henry, June quarter 1847
    Ellen Charlotte, March quarter 1851

    Death registrations
    Louisa, aged 0, December quarter 1844
    Levina, aged 8, December quarter 1850

    ADDED:
    Birth registration, Rosetta, December quarter 1848 - mother's maiden name listed as Gent.


    Pam
    Vulcan XH558 - “Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.”

  7. #7
    Super Moderator - Completely bonkers and will never change.
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    Re Christina's post #4 with the marriages with wrong district name or page number.

    Phillip - all the people listed with Joseph Cohen should have married in the same place (register office, synagogue, church, etc), September quarter 1839.
    Is there an easy way for you to check the other names and find where they married?
    The names are
    Catherine COHEN
    Lewis LEVY
    Rebecca LYONS
    Maurice MOSES
    Samuel PHILLIPS
    Sara SALOMONS

    Obviously the GRO had a very bad day at the office the day they transcribed the original handwritten ledgers to a type-written index, as I've spotted a Reuben PHILLIPS, marrying September quarter 1839 with a page number 186A but the district and volume number being the same.
    The other names on the same page as Reuben are
    Ellen JONES
    Hannah LEVY
    Abraham MYERS
    Harriet THEMANS
    Simon VAN RAALTE

    Obviously we don't know who married who, but are any of those names enough to stand out and make it easy for you to find out where they might have married?

    Pam
    Vulcan XH558 - “Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.”

  8. #8

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    Hi Chris,Christanel and Pam
    I will take a close look at the Jewish names.For general information the Norwich Synagogue was destroyed in WW2 and most records lost. I have a particular interest in the Norwich Jewish community because my 4x great uncle Barnett Crawcour was a founder member of the earlier Synagogue in Tombland in the early 1800s. In addition, I have researched the early tombstones in the Ber Street Quaker's Ground cemetery and this has been posted on this site and and on Cemetery Scribes. Currently, I have been writing a research paper on some of the Jewish inhabitants in Norwich including Simon Caro.
    I doubt if the Jewish burial record for Joseph would have given more details.
    I will post data if relevant.
    Phillip-Jewish,British Ancestry

    "The only true dead are those who have been forgotten"

  9. #9

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    A small aside- My Crawcour relative Solomon aka Samuel aka John Smith convict transported to Tasmania married CAROLINE GANT who had also been transported. She was tried and convicted in Ipswich in 1852. She came from Suffolk and her parents were William and Lucy Gant. I have posted several threads on Caroline and Solomon et al on this forum. I have no idea if Caroline Gant was in any way related to Charlotte Gant and will look further.

    Norwich in the 1800s was developing as an important city including the shoe trade and allied work. JewishGen has a record of the number of Jewish inhabitants in the Norwich area for the periods during the 1800s.
    Phillip-Jewish,British Ancestry

    "The only true dead are those who have been forgotten"

  10. #10

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    Hi Pam
    Your #7. It was a good idea to cross check the various names in 1839 marriages. I have found them all except Themans and Van Raalte. The others are recorded in the Great Synagogue Marriage Records:

    Catherine Cohen married Lewis Levy; Rebecca Lyons married Samuel Phillips; Sarah Salomons married Maurice Moses; Hannah Levy married Joseph Browne

    There is a marriage GSM 303/22 Joseph Cohen 3 March 1835 to Rachel Goodman.

    Here is another thought- did Joseph marry in a Jewish ceremony to another Jew? If so, he and his wife would require a Get ( divorce) approved by the Bet Din. If his wife refused the divorce then he would remain married. I have posted on the Get and the Bet Din in an earlier post. If this is the case and he then married Charlotte this would have been bigamous. I am beginning to wonder if they actually married but proof is needed.
    This marrying out and any prior Jewish marriage may account for the hard line the Norwich Jewish community took regarding Joseph's burial. This is speculation and further proof is required
    Phillip-Jewish,British Ancestry

    "The only true dead are those who have been forgotten"

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