Norwich Cohen interfaith marriage 1839

[phillip]

I have checked all the London and Norfolk Baptism and Marriage Records for Joseph and Charlotte and so far can't locate any marriage. There are the Baptisms of the children as noted on the Rootsweb site. I also looked to see if Joseph was also baptised and found nothing. My thinking was whether or not Joseph converted if he married Charlotte ( I am aware that there are Ancestry.Co public family trees who have Susan Charlotte Gant as the wife of Joseph.He died in 1859 of a Carbuncle according to his GRO Death Certificate).

Often but not always the son took on a job based on what their father had done and I will look for any comparable Jewish Cohen in a similar trade as Joseph.

When Joseph died it appears that none of his siblings (if he had any) or immediate Jewish family offered to support his widow and children. I have also been wondering if Cohen was his original family name or did he alter it on 'marriage' or interfaith relationship. Is this another reason why he came to Norwich but he would have been known by the Jewish community for his relationship to a non Jew which couldn't have been easy for him or his family.

[phillip]

A small note- The Ashkenazi naming tradition(if Joseph is an Ashkenazi and not a Sephardic Jew)is not to name children after living ancestors. In Ashkenazi naming tradition providing the grandparents are dead, the first son is given the name of the paternal grandfather ( Lewis Emanuel b 1841) and the second son is named after the maternal grandfather ( Leon Cohen b 1845). This doesn't give us a clue about the father or mother of Joseph but may prove a useful guide.

[clc136a]

Would I be right in thinking Lewis would be Louis if Sephardic?
My middle name is Leon, Joseph Leon b. 1873 my grand father and Leon b.1845 his father - given names seem to propagate in families anyway - our oldest's middle name is John from both paternal and maternal grandfather.
My father sometimes spoke about Joseph Lewis as just 'Lewis', may be only to distinguish from his father.
When were Jews obliged to adopt surnames? And (K)Cohen was more an occupation than name I guess..
I read recently about Jewish travellers coming across from Holland to Harwich and Kings Lynn, its possible JLC came across as on his own I guess... I need to double check but I think there might be a Paris connection, seem to remember one of children travelling there.

[phillip]

First of all, did you see the earlier posts on Page 1 of this thread regarding my Gant/Crawcour line and the posts from Pam?
I have Ashkenazi ancestors where Louis/Lewis is interchangeable. Often the middle name of a father was used even if the father was still alive and this also appears among my people. The issue of Jewish last names and the adoption of these names is well documented. The main development of surnames was during the Napoleonic and later Austria and other European countries. Fines and other penalties were imposed to enforce surnames.
The Dutch immigration to the East of England is recorded in a range of sources.

My 5x great grandfather was Moshe Cohen but his daughter adopted his patronymic name and called herself Kitty Moses. In addition, if you look on Synagogue Scribes records you will see individuals with surnames such as Nathan and father's last name Moses or Cohen or another last name. Original names such as place names like Lietzen became Letson and the family name adopted as Jacobs as in my own line. Other surnames from Poland, Russia etc were too hard to spell or pronounce in the UK so place names adopted - you can see examples of these in UK Naturalisation Records- the parents Russian names such as Fage and Styia with Hebrew names Isaac etc.
You also have individuals in the same family each adopting a different surname. I have examples of this in my lines making it difficult to track and identify them.
On the Rootsweb original posts Paris was discussed with regard to the Joseph Cohen line. I have read the posts carefully and also crossed checked with family trees on Ancestry. There is no trace which has the parents names for Joseph.

The Bevis Marks records have the various names of hundreds of individuals including BMD. The Sephardic naming tradition usually names a child after a living grandparent.
The Jewish male circumcision at the age of eight days are the nearest equivalent to Christian baptism records but these records were held by the mohel and not the parents or Synagogue. There are some well known circumcision records -see Synagogue Scribes- but I could not identify Joseph. I have not got access to the Bevis Marks records but these are available in published form.

I am still looking for Joseph but without the name of his father it is difficult. If Joseph was born in Lambeth in c1816 his parents had to have immigrated from wherever in Europe.He did not come over to the UK on his own providing the census data on born Lambeth is accurate.

Somewhere down the line Joseph acquired a knowledge of printing and printing tools hence the term Letter Founder.He may have been based in Norwich but it looks like he was also itinerant moving to different parts selling his printing pamphlets etc.

The Ancestry UK apprenticeship records don't cover the later period post 1811 from memory but it maybe that Joseph did serve an apprenticeship or learned the trade from his father.

[clc136a]

Thanks for all your suggestions. I checked the anomaly Christina noticed and looking back discovered I had tried to order a marriage certificate from GRO seven years ago (!) and it was refunded saying names don’t match Joseph and Charlotte Ellis. Moreover I have been unable to make any other link to Ellis surname and baptisms all quote Gant as mothers name.
I did find a Lewis Cohen in 1841 Kings Lynn census as bookbinder, I wonder if that is relevant? He is noted as from foreign parts.

[phillip]

Looking at the Rootsweb posts plus the data on this thread as a summary these are the issues:
1 The only data we have on Joseph being born Lambeth Surrey is the 1851 Census
2 The 1841 Census with Lewis Cohen born Foreign parts and a book binder ( looking at the other names on the same census record several are listed as Hawkers and born Foreign parts- they are also Jews)may or may not be Joseph. I think another Cohen was recorded in the same house
3 There appear to be no civil marriage records for Joseph and Charlotte post 1837 civil registration. They are not listed in London or Norfolk records- did they marry abroad?
4 There is insufficient data to link Joseph to any other known Cohen. We don't know his parents or siblings names or where they lived
5 The issue of Joseph's burial request suggests that he may have converted which is why the Jewish community did not want him buried in the Norwich Jewish Cemetery. The baptism of his children may also have been an issue plus his marriage to a gentile if indeed he was married
6 None of the children are Jews because their mother was a Christian- the matrilineal line denotes recognition as being a Jew
7 Joseph appears through the naming of the children and his desire to be buried in a Jewish cemetery to have maintained some traditions but I doubt if he attended the Synagogue- if he did there may not have been the issue of his burial
8 Joseph appears to have had some training in printing but where and when we don't know
9 There is no Synagogue data to identify Joseph or Lewis/Louis Cohen to your Joseph
10 Currently, I can't see any Cohen listed on London Traders for the period when Joseph was born who were printers or in a comparable trade but I will look further
11 There is no clear data on Charlotte Gant although several Ancestry public trees have recorded her as Susan


Do you have any other Jewish family names among your lines that could help track down Joseph?

[phillip]

I have seen your Ancestry.Co public tree and note the record of Abraham Cohen Rag Merchant in the 1841 Census living in Rosemary Lane with probably his wife ( I doubt if her first name is Nuvell but I can't make it out). The following records are likely to be this Abraham Cohen:
The London Gazette Bankruptcy records- Abraham Cohen heretofore 3 Cock Lane Shoreditch Middlesex then 7 Park Street Borough Market Southwark Surrey and late of 72 Rosemary Lane Whitechapel Middlesex Rag Merchant and Dealer in Marine Stores-1833- see Pigot 1836 Abraham Cohen 72 Rosemary Lane Marine Store Dealer and 2 Cross Street Islington P0 1846.

You noted that there was a Joseph Cohen at the Rosemary Street Lane 1841 Census Address and there is also a Lewis Cohen tailor age 60 with what are likely to be his children a few houses away.There appears to be a Charlotte Brooker? at a house or same address as Abraham Cohen but this needs confirming.

There is nothing currently to link Joseph Lewis Cohen in the print trade to this Abraham Cohen however further research is needed.

[clc136a]

I recently chanced across Barnard Cohen bookbinder in lower marsh Lambeth 1842 that is possible connection

[phillip]

If you look on The London Gazette Archives you will see that Abraham Cohen was not only a bankrupt but in the Debtor's Prison for London and Middlesex in January 1843-Rag Merchant and General Dealer. I can't locate him in the 1851 Census nor on the 1851 Anglo Jewry Data base. This maybe because Petra Laidlaw hadn't noted him or else he was dead. Petra only recorded those living in 1851 and noted their parents.

I will look at Barnard Cohen.
For clarity, the Jewish Chronicle archives have no reference to Joseph Lewis Cohen perhaps not surprising given his 'marriage' and baptism of his children. The newspaper archives run from 1841- present and I can access all newspaper reports. We don't know how Joseph's parents ( if alive) or siblings etc reacted to him marrying a gentile but it is probable he may have been rejected.

[phillip]

For clarity #18 Barnard Cohen Lower Marsh Lambeth bookbinder- There is a Barnard Cohen in the 1841 Census Lower Marsh Lambeth HO107 1061 6 16 40 2 11 but he is a Clothes Salesman age 65 Foreign Birth. He is with his children by the look of it.

Where did you note Bernard Cohen bookbinder in 1842?