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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by LizzieB View Post
    Hi Jomot1......it is the two first born sons of John Richards and Mary Jaques whose marriage you have there 1796. James 1796 (?) and John 1798 (?). And there's a Mary 1801 born Coleorton but baptised 1803 Griffydam, Thomas 1806 b. Newbold, bapt. Griffydam, Martha b. 1808 Newbold, baptised Griffydam, William b. 1811 Newbold (in the parish of Breedon) and bapt. Griffydam. Also a Joseph Richards bapt. same date as Mary 1803 Griffydam. These are from Ancestry Images and Records of E and W Non-conformists........etc. In any occupations I see of the Richards they are all colliers/miners. John was born 1765 so the first marriage would be possible but not the 1771 marriage. The first marriage is worth me investigating further and I thank you for your efforts. It is very frustrating. The Weslyan persuasion runs through both sides of my family so I'm reasonably happy that the ones mentioned above belong, it's the James and John that are putting a spanner in the works. Many thanks......LizzieB
    The male baptised the same date as Mary is written as John, not Joseph.

    Is your James the James Richards of Newbold buried 4 Feb 1838 at Breedon on the Hill, aged 42? Married Charlotte Smith at Worthington 1819?

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by LizzieB View Post
    Gosh just noticed this....and am not familiar with what happens with this order....do they have to marry? You have them married 1786 by licence. The two being bondsmen, is money involved? How interesting.
    No, they don't have to marry, but a Bastardy Order generally means the father has to pay the costs associated with the birth and also ongoing 'maintenance' so that the mother's parish is not put to cost.

    As this couple went on to marry, it would appear to have been something of a shotgun wedding, which could account for the licence.

    The marriage licence has Thomas Cheatle or Chettle of Donnington as the bondsman. John & Mary were both said to be 21. John signed X

    The John Richards who married Mary Jaques was able to sign his name, as could what looks like Jos[ep]h Richards, the witness. It doesn’t mention whether John was a bachelor or widower.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jomot1 View Post
    No, they don't have to marry, but a Bastardy Order generally means the father has to pay the costs associated with the birth and also ongoing 'maintenance' so that the mother's parish is not put to cost.

    As this couple went on to marry, it would appear to have been something of a shotgun wedding, which could account for the licence.

    The marriage licence has Thomas Cheatle or Chettle of Donnington as the bondsman. John & Mary were both said to be 21. John signed X

    The John Richards who married Mary Jaques was able to sign his name, as could what looks like Jos[ep]h Richards, the witness. It doesn’t mention whether John was a bachelor or widower.
    My memory on this is a bit hazy, but I vaguely remember reading somewhere that 'age 21' didn't necessarily mean they were actually 21. Merely that they were at least 21. i.e. they could have been any age between 21 and 101.

    Pam
    Vulcan XH558 - “Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.”

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pam Downes View Post
    My memory on this is a bit hazy, but I vaguely remember reading somewhere that 'age 21' didn't necessarily mean they were actually 21. Merely that they were at least 21. i.e. they could have been any age between 21 and 101.

    Pam
    It can vary, some say aged 21 or above so you at least know its a maybe, but this one was pre-printed aged [blank] years, with twenty-one then handwritten for both.

    I agree it isn't 100% conclusive as to age, but taken with the Bastardy Order which mentions John Jr and John Sr of Coleorton, it fits with the baptism at Coleorton on 1 Sep 1765 of John s/o John & Sarah Richards.

    There was also a baptism at Newtown Linford on 8 Apr 1764 John s/o John & Ann Richards.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jomot1 View Post
    The male baptised the same date as Mary is written as John, not Joseph.

    Is your James the James Richards of Newbold buried 4 Feb 1838 at Breedon on the Hill, aged 42? Married Charlotte Smith at Worthington 1819?
    Yes Jomot1. So, John not Joseph. Thank you, I'll certainly re-look that one.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jomot1 View Post
    The male baptised the same date as Mary is written as John, not Joseph.

    Is your James the James Richards of Newbold buried 4 Feb 1838 at Breedon on the Hill, aged 42? Married Charlotte Smith at Worthington 1819?
    Yes Jomot1. I've finally worked out how to get the reply in the right place to the right person.

  7. #17
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    Apologies in advance for the very long post, but I’m not entirely convinced you have the correct parents in John & Mary. Firstly, just for reference, I have these as James & Charlotte’s children:
    John 1819 Worthington, Joseph 1822 Coleorton, William 1824 Coleorton,
    Thomas 1829 Coleorton, Maria 1832 Worthington, James 1834 Worthington

    A witness to John & Charlotte’s marriage was John Cresswell, and a John Cresswell married Hannah Richards at Breedon in 1813. Have you investigated this connection?

    1841 Gels Moor, Breedon
    Hannah Cresswell 45
    William 20, Elizabeth 15, Hannah 15, Sarah 10,
    Henry Horn 25, Mary 25, William 4, Joseph 1

    1851 Newbold
    James Batewell 29 Coalminer b Worthington
    Elizabeth 27 wife b Worthington
    Children: Sarah 7, Mary 5 , Hanh 2 & Elizabeth 1m, all b Worthington
    Hanh Cresswell 59 (1792) Mother in Law b Thringstone

    I can’t find a Hannah Richards baptised in Thringstone, but there is one in Coleorton:
    25 Mar 1792 Hannah d/o William & Eliza Richards
    - also -
    1 Dec 1793 Mary d/o William & Elizabeth Richards

    Mary Richards married Joseph Bird 1813, Breedon & they are on the census 1841-1861 at Lount, Breedon/Staunton Harold, with Mary’s PoB also Thringstone. (NB: In 1841 a Hannah Richards aged 5 is close by, and is probably the daughter of Thomas Richards & Mary Bird who married in 1825, Breedon).

    The most likely parents for Hannah [Cresswell] & Mary [Bird] are William & Elizabeth Richards nee Bakewell who married at Whitwick, 25 Apr 1791, Wit: Wm Boncor
    -----------------------------------------
    Going back to James, he married at Worthington in 1819, and on 28 Sep 1818 John Richards & Jane Buckley married at the same place.
    In 1841 they are in Newbold with numerous children including a James and a Hannah.
    In 1851 they are at Gelsmoor, which is where Hannah Cresswell (nee Richards) was living in 1841 (Hannah's husband being the witness to James & Charlotte's marriage)

    Also married at Worthington, on 7 Nov 1831 were Sarah Richards & Abraham Woollatt Wit: Joseph Richards

    1841 Newbold
    Abram Willat 30 Coalminer
    Sarah 30,
    Children: William 9, Hannah 5, James 2, Sharlet 6m
    Elizabeth Richards 70

    Interesting that they named a daughter Charlotte, and also named a son James, both born shortly after the death of ‘your’ James.
    WILLETT, JAMES mmn RICHARDS GRO Ref: 1838 S Quarter in ASHBY-DE-LA-ZOUCH Volume 15 Page 5
    WILLETT, CHARLOTTE mmn RICHARDS GRO Ref: 1840 D Quarter in ASHBY-DE-LA-ZOUCH Volume 15 Page 4

    In 1851 Abraham, Sarah & family are still in Newbold, living next to James & Sarah Richards & family. This James was the son of John & Jane, and his marriage to Sarah Wardle was witnessed by Mary & Joseph Bird.

    So, whilst I haven’t entirely pieced it all together, there seems a reasonable likelihood that James Richards was the brother of John, Hannah [Cresswell], Mary [Bird] and possibly Sarah [Woollatt/Willett], although as Sarah seems quite a bit younger its possible she’s his niece. If that's correct, then his parents are most likely William Richards & Elizabeth (possibly nee Bakewell).

    Elizabeth died 1846, aged 76, and was buried at Breedon 10 May 1846

    I don't know if he's connected, but a William Richards aged 74 of Thringston was buried at Whitwick 25 Jan 1849

  8. #18
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    Now, firstly, thank you so much for going to such trouble endeavouring to sort this part of my tree out. You understand it is going to take me some time to go into the above and try to work out just how much does/does not relate to my lot so if I don't get back to this forum in what might seem a reasonable time it is just that I don't especially have a huge amount of time in my day for doing research. I manage to grab and hour or two in the evening. But in the meantime I thank you Jomot1 and others for your contributions and time....LizzieB

  9. #19
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    No problem - I just hope I havent sent you off on a wild goose chase!

    Ive managed to rule out the 1849 burial for William Richards though. A more likely one (assuming I'm right!) is William Richards aged 66 of Newbold buried 12 Nov 1834, Breedon

  10. #20
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    Just to add a bit more (sorry!), going by the signatures, the Joseph Richards who witnessed the marriage between Sarah Richards & Abraham Woollatt is the same Joseph Richards who married Lydia Johnson in 1833 at Breedon – witnesses John Johnson, Abraham Johnson & Thomas H__?

    In 1841 they are in Newbold
    Joseph Richard 25 Coal Miner – not born in County
    Lydia 25, William 6, John 4, Thomas 2, Mary 5m

    In 1851 they are still in Newbold
    Joseph Richards 37 Coal Miner b Worthington
    Lydia 34 b, John 14 b, Thomas 11, Mary 10, Sarah 8, Lydia 3, Hannah 1
    Sarah Johnson 64 Mother-in-law b Coleorton

    1861 Gels Moor
    Joseph Richards 47 Coal Miner b Worthington
    Lydia 44, Thomas 21, Sarah 18, Lydia 13, Hannah 11, Elizabeth 10, Joseph 8, Benjamin 3

    1871 Out Wood Lane, Worthington
    Joseph Richards 57, Lydia 54
    Thomas 31, Sarah 27, Elizabeth 20, Joseph 18, William 6 (Grandson)

    So Joseph is consistent about being born c1814, Worthington, but again, I can’t find a baptism.

    Sarah Woollatt/Willett nee Richards whose marriage Joseph witnessed says she was born c1810, Swannington, so therefore possibly also connected is the Thomas Richards who married & Rebecca Marsden 1825, Whitwick, as he can also be found at Gels Moor/Gelsmoor from 1851 giving his birth details as c1806, Swannington.

    I'll leave you now to digest it all, and see if there's anything you can definitely rule in/out.

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