These two boys I think may be twins they appear on the same page ref of the birth record Volume 4a Page 252. 1852 Reg district Lexden JFM quarter. I can find nothing regarding parentage so am completely stuck. Many thanks
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Thread: Joseph & George Germany
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11-04-2020, 7:21 PM #1
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Joseph & George Germany
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11-04-2020, 9:33 PM #2
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Using the GRO search page - see below - I tend to agree that they were twins, and as there was no mother's maiden name they were illegitimate. You would have to invest in at least one of the birth certificates.
www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates
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11-04-2020, 9:34 PM #3
Welcome to the British-Genealogy forums.
Births registered on the GRO Index site without any mother's maiden name shown which usually indicates an illegitimate birth. So we are looking for an unmarried mother. Do you have them on any census?
I have moved this post from the Certificates - Births, Marriages and Deaths in the UK forum which is only for posting unwanted certificates to the Essex forum.
Christina
You beat me to it MeganSometimes paranoia is just having all the facts.
William Burroughs
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12-04-2020, 12:17 AM #4
Hi, and welcome to the Brit-Gen forums.
I know these are not the people you are looking for but they demonstrate how the surname changes from one record to another.
GERMANY, SELINA LETITIA, Mother's Maiden Name ARNOLD
GRO Reference: 1857 D Quarter in LEXDEN & WINSTREE Volume 04A Page 252
GERMANY, ARTHUR WILLIAM, Mother's Maiden Name ARNOLD
GRO Reference: 1859 J Quarter in LEXDEN & WINSTREE UNION Volume 04A Page 276
GERMANY, LITITIA MARIA, Mother's Maiden Name ARNOLD
GRO Reference: 1862 J Quarter in LEXDEN & WINSTREE Volume 04A Page 289
Marriage Dec qrt 1857, Lexden, 4a 455
Joseph Jarmin/Eliza Arnold.
Baptism
Latitia Maria Jurmeny, 18 May 1862, Fordham, All Saints, Essex, England
Parents Joseph JURMENY, Eliza Jurmeny
1881, Heath Mill Lane Cook Hall Mill Cottage, Fordham,
RG11; Piece: 1799; Folio: 65; Page: 16
Joseph JARMAN 48
Eliza Jarman 49
Arthur Jarman 22
Latitia Jarman 19
In 1871 they are JARMIN, RG10; Piece: 1692; Folio: 61; Page: 10;
1861 also JARMIN, RG 9; Piece: 1104; Folio: 56; Page: 5
Using those spellings to search for George and Joseph I may have found Joseph but as yet only after he married. I'll post details in a moment.Alma
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12-04-2020, 12:35 AM #5
I hope this helps.
1881, 74 Frederick St, Islington. RG11; Piece: 237; Folio: 142; Page: 47;
Joseph Jerman 29. horse keeper, West Bergholt, Essex (Lexden was the reg. district)
Elizabeth Jerman 24, Hemyovk, Devon.
Eva Jerman 3, Hemyock
1891, Withycombe Raleigh Devon. RG12; Piece: 1676; Folio: 18; Page: 29
Joseph Jarman 36, gardener's assistant, West Bergholt, Essex
Elizabeth Jarman 30, Hemyock
Joseph Jarman 6, Hemyock
1901, Withycombe Raleigh Piece: 2029 Folio: 19; Page: 29
Joseph Jerman 48, farm lab. West Bergholt Essex.
Elizabeth Jerman 44
Joseph Jerman 16
Harry J Jerman 6
1911, Withycombe Raleigh RG14; Piece: 12580; SN: 116
Joseph Jarman 59, gardener domestic. West Bergholt Essex.
Elizabeth Jarman 58, married 30yrs, 5 children born alive, 3 still living.
Harry Jarman 17Alma
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12-04-2020, 12:42 AM #6
There's a transcription of their marriage on Ancestry, it names Elizabeth's father but not Joseph's.
Joseph Jarman, Age: 27, Married 1 Jan 1879
West Bergholt, St Mary The Virgin, Essex.
Elizabeth Hart, Age:21, father: James Hart.Alma
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12-04-2020, 2:01 AM #7
The marriage is on Freereg and gives more info.
Joseph was living at: S. Andrews, Thornhill Square, Islington
Elizabeth in West Bergholt.
The witness names: James and Harriet Jarman.
There are question marks next to the grooms father's first and surname.
Perhaps this is the marriage of James and Harriet
05 Dec 1863, St Mary the Virgin, West Bergholt.
James Jarman, abode: West Bergholt, father William
Harriet Hayho Munson, abode: West Bergholt, father: John Hayho. Bride's father noted as "reputed father".
Witnesses: Elijah Beard and Eliza Locke
1861, James with his father William and Mother Tama in West Bergholt. RG 9; Piece: 1104; Folio: 95; Page: 9;Alma
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12-04-2020, 3:54 AM #81861, James with his father William and Mother Tama in West Bergholt. RG 9; Piece: 1104; Folio: 95; Page: 9;
8th Oct 1816, Fordham All Saints.
William Jarman/Tamar Dreane.
Witnesses: Samuel and Fanny Clarke.
These are baptisms for James and his siblings
Harriet and Lydia Fordham both baptised 9th May 1826 at All Saints, Fordham
Parents: William and Tamar JARMAN
Same Church and parents
Matthew JARMAN, 19 Apr 1825
Mark JARMAN, 19 Apr 1825
John JARMAN, 19 Apr 1825
Phoebe JARMAN, 19 Jun 1820
Joseph JARMAN, 20 Sep 1829
Joseph JARMAN, 3 Jun 1832
Mary JARMAN, 3 May 1835
James JARMAN, 22 Sep 1839
I think I may have found a breakthrough, I just need to get it all together.Alma
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12-04-2020, 4:31 AM #9
Harriet JARMAN married Joseph WILLIAMS
14 Apr 1852, St Mary the Virgin, West Bergholt
Brides father William JARMAN
The 1861 census is untidy writing you need to take a look at it.
West Bergholt, RG 9; Piece: 1104; Folio: 109; Page: 20;
This is how Ancestry has indexed it,
Soph Williams 44
Harriett William 33
Sopha George William
Alford William 6
Walter Williams 4
I'm sure Soph is actually Joseph, and Soph George is Joseph and George, the original sheet says Soph AND George their age is not readable, but as they are listed above the other two children they will probably be older than Alford (Alfred?)
I haven't found a death yet for Joseph Williams, but Harriet re-marries in 1869.
23 Oct 1869, St Mary the Virgin, West Bergholt
George GLADWELL, widower, farm labourer, father George GLADWELL a farm labourer.
Harriet WILLIAMS, widow, tailoress, father William JARMAN a farm labourer.
Witnesses: William and Mary Worth.
1871 census, West Bergholt, RG10; Piece: 1692; Folio: 101; Page: 7
George Gladwell 46, farm labourer, Suffolk
Harriott Gladwell 41, Fordham
Joseph Williams 19, West Bergholt
Alfred Williams 17, West Bergholt
Walter Williams 13, West Bergholt
It seems to me that Joseph and George adopted the name WILLIAMS for the census returns, whether Joseph WILLIAMS is their natural father is debatable if he is the question is why did Joseph use the name JARMAN at marriage and after his marriage.
Digest all the info and let me know what you think.Alma
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12-04-2020, 10:45 AM #10
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That looks very possible to me Alma!
Looking for twin brother George - poss marriedas Jermaine to Sarah Elizabeth Haylock, Islington 1878.
1881 FS carman in Islington as Fermaine with daughter Eliza and Sarah's brother Frederick. George b West Bergholt
In 1891 I think as Germaine on Islington tho I think wife should be Sarah not Eliza.
Daughter Eliza Isabella I think married Henry Edward Powell and Harriet Elizabeth married Henry Boswell Glenister.
Sorry am on my phone and my notes are all on a scrappy bit of envelope.....
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