Grandmother's family from Liverpool

[Pam Downes]

Now, if anyone can work their magic on John Howard (b. Dec 27 1910)'s two wives (first one Fanny Swift, married Jan 1937, died 1957 and second one Doris - that's all I've got), that would be terrific. I've been searching myself, but nothing is turning up.

Also, Charles Howard's first son Charles (b. Oct 27 1897) from his first marriage to Lucy Carroll is someone I have nothing on.

Are you sure you don't mean died 1959?
There's a death registration for a Fanny Howard, aged 47, Liverpool North registration district, June quarter 1959.

There's a marriage for a John Howard and a Doris Heward, September quarter 1960, Liverpool North registration district. Can't easily find another marriage to a Doris in the Liverpool area.

Possible death registration for John, September quarter 1967, Liverpool North registration district, aged 57.

Pam

[christanel]

Also, Charles Howard's first son Charles (b. Oct 27 1897) from his first marriage to Lucy Carroll is someone I have nothing on.

Looks like he and his mother were boarding along with her father? and brother? in the 1901 census
RG13 Piece 3468 Folio 169 Page 54
13 John's Terrace Kirkdale
Maxwell Dorset 39 head Able seaman Liverpool
Mary A Dorset 30 wife Scotland
Fredk Dorset 7 Liverpool
Hugh Carrol 61 Boarder Ireland Dock labourer
Thomas Carrol 17 Boarder Liverpool - can't read his occupation
Lucy Howard 28 Boarder Liverpool
Charles Howard 4 Boarder Liverpool

Christina

[Pamelawagster]

Possible birth reg.

Charles Howard
MMN - CARROLL
1896 S Quarter,
WEST DERBY
Vol 08B Page 415

[Progatron]

Tremendous thanks to each and all of you for your effort and help, it is so appreciated! I'm obviously going to have to look into upgrading my Ancestry account level to allow for international records so I am not pestering the fine people of this forum all the time. In the meantime...

I'll start it off with the 1939 Register, then I'll have to leave it.

Thank you, a big help to have Fanny's DOB and family names.

Are you sure you don't mean died 1959?
There's a death registration for a Fanny Howard, aged 47, Liverpool North registration district, June quarter 1959.

It could very well be. I had 1957 based on her son's memory in one of our e-mail conversations (until I contacted him, I had thought second wife Doris was his mother). But he is 79 now and could easily be remembering the wrong date (I know I do that at 47!)

There's a marriage for a John Howard and a Doris Heward, September quarter 1960, Liverpool North registration district. Can't easily find another marriage to a Doris in the Liverpool area.

Possible death registration for John, September quarter 1967, Liverpool North registration district, aged 57.

It could be. One thing I've learned is that people frequently remarried quickly after the death of their first spouse. Usually in under a year. However John Howard lived into his 90s, and I even met him (and Doris) at grandma Jessie's 100th birthday celebration here in Canada, back in 1999. I wish I had the interest in our family background back then. So many of these people are gone now and I can't hear their stories first-hand.

Looks like he and his mother were boarding along with her father? and brother? in the 1901 census
RG13 Piece 3468 Folio 169 Page 54
13 John's Terrace Kirkdale
Maxwell Dorset 39 head Able seaman Liverpool
Mary A Dorset 30 wife Scotland
Fredk Dorset 7 Liverpool
Hugh Carrol 61 Boarder Ireland Dock labourer
Thomas Carrol 17 Boarder Liverpool - can't read his occupation
Lucy Howard 28 Boarder Liverpool
Charles Howard 4 Boarder Liverpool

That's definitely how it seems, yes... I have her death date as circa 1906, and as far as I'm aware, she and Charles senior had not separated, so I wonder why he is not with them. I had initially concluded that she simply died young and he remarried Annie and had John, etc. I do wonder about the censuses sometimes, a small human error (a misspelling, a wrong date) can trickle down through the years. But then, there's often a different but simple explanation, like perhaps Charles was away for an extended period and the young family needed somewhere to stay. Interesting little puzzles.

BTW I found (and can see) that 1901 census, and for interest's sake, I think Thomas' occupation that you can't read is "cigarette maker".

Possible birth reg.

Charles Howard
MMN - CARROLL
1896 S Quarter,
WEST DERBY
Vol 08B Page 415

I have him as 27 Oct 1897, but unverified. Your source seems more likely, and considering Charles and Lucy were married in Jan 1893, four and a half years seems a long time for their first child to come along. All this being said, there were a lot of Charles Howards milling about in that time and place!

[Pam Downes]

It could very well be. I had 1957 based on her son's memory in one of our e-mail conversations (until I contacted him, I had thought second wife Doris was his mother). But he is 79 now and could easily be remembering the wrong date (I know I do that at 47!)

If you check the GRO's own site you will see that they have no record of a Fanny Howard death registration anywhere in England and Wales in 1957. FreeBMD gave me the 1959 one.

It could be. One thing I've learned is that people frequently remarried quickly after the death of their first spouse. Usually in under a year. However John Howard lived into his 90s, and I even met him (and Doris) at grandma Jessie's 100th birthday celebration here in Canada, back in 1999. I wish I had the interest in our family background back then. So many of these people are gone now and I can't hear their stories first-hand.

In that case, I suspect John died first quarter 2003, and judging by the date of registration (01/03 which is mm/yy) either in the last couple of days in December 2002 or some time in January 2003. Registration district Liverpool
District number - 0251F
Register number - F35D
Entry number - 160

That's definitely how it seems, yes... I have her death date as circa 1906, and as far as I'm aware, she and Charles senior had not separated, so I wonder why he is not with them. I had initially concluded that she simply died young and he remarried Annie and had John, etc. I do wonder about the censuses sometimes, a small human error (a misspelling, a wrong date) can trickle down through the years. But then, there's often a different but simple explanation, like perhaps Charles was away for an extended period and the young family needed somewhere to stay. Interesting little puzzles.

BTW I found (and can see) that 1901 census, and for interest's sake, I think Thomas' occupation that you can't read is "cigarette maker".



I have him as 27 Oct 1897, but unverified. Your source seems more likely, and considering Charles and Lucy were married in Jan 1893, four and a half years seems a long time for their first child to come along. All this being said, there were a lot of Charles Howards milling about in that time and place!

There was an eleven year wait before my 2x great-grandparents had their first child.
Back in the days when FreeBMD had only a couple of million entries on it, my usual method of finding a marriage registration was to go to my local LDS FHC who had the GRO Index on quarterly fiche, or else go to London and search through the quarterly ledgers at the Family Record Centre. BY the time you've lifted forty ledgers off the shelves you didn't need to go to the gym for a fortnight!

Pam

[Megan Roberts]

BLUE COAT SCHOOLS

I know that we exchanged a little bit of information about this before, but quite randomly I came across something else today which I think might add to your story, and also give us all a little bit more knowledge!

I am helping to transcribe a local newspaper's records for the 1st World War to create a data base of military personnel data base, with links to all the various articles, which someone else has already clipped out and photocopied. At the top of one of the pages that I am looking at is the half sentence "educated at the National Blue Coats School Wigan". So I did a bit of googling and came across this Wikipedia entry:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluecoat_school

At the bottom there is a link to an "wayback" paper about the Liverpool school, and the decision to move it Wavertree so that the children could enjoy the countryside air.

It seems to have operated as a charitable institution and there are references to it also operating as an orphanage, but it may that it took in both orphaned and children with parents, and Jesse may have qualified after her father's untimely death.

[Progatron]

That's interesting, Megan, and exactly what I had been thinking when I saw it was mainly a school for orphaned children, since her father died when she was nine years old. Well spotted!