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  1. #1
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    Question Walsh nee Waterman Dartford Kent

    Vera Constance Waterman. In 1944 she gave birth to John Peter Walsh, under her maiden name.
    https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QV7S-MV4R

    On John P Walsh death Certificate it lists;
    Father: Charles Walsh
    Mother: Vera Constance Walsh
    Place of Birth Dartford, Kent.

    There is a Vera Constance Waterman who married a William A Walsh in 1939.

    Going through Census (1911) records there are several William A Walshs' with a brother Charles. Is it possible that William A died and a brother was put down as father??? Thats if we have the right Vera Constance. How many could have been living in Dartford at that time?

    I am planning on ordering the birth certificate of John P Walsh in the hopes of clarifying, as things are as clear as mud at the moment.

    John P Walsh Died in New Zealand on 26th November 1969, I was born several months later. I am hoping to find a living relative so I can do a DNA test as I cannot trust the word of my family and no father is listed on my birth certificate.

    genienetaftATgmailDOTcom
    Last edited by christanel; 17-02-2020 at 1:59 AM. Reason: email address disguised to deter spam

  2. #2
    Super Moderator christanel's Avatar
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    Vera Constance and William A Walsh are on the 1939 register living at 280 Linthorpe Rd Middlesborough VB Yorkshire.
    Her birthday is 28 April 1909 and his 3 April 1912. So you are not going to find him on the 1911 census.
    There are three redacted names after theirs so no indication of how they fit in to the household.
    Using the birth date as a guide for John Walsh there is a birth of a William A Walsh registration district June 1/4 1912 registration district York vol 9d page 69 mother's maiden name Murray. 1900- 1912 in all of England and Wales there is only one marriage registration of a Murray to a Walsh and that is in the registration district of Southwark Dec 1/4 1912. Catherine Murray married William F Walsh.
    Christina
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  3. #3

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    Hi Kiwi Walsh, welcome to the British Genealogy Forums.

    Who was named as the informant on John P Walsh's death certificate? I ask as if the informant didn't know the deceased very well it did happen they would give a wrong name.

    I cannot see a Charles Walsh to relate to William A using surname and Mother's maiden name Murray.

    Did John P Walsh marry and if so do you have a copy of his marriage cert which should name his Father.
    Alma

  4. #4

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    I am hoping to find a living relative so I can do a DNA test as I cannot trust the word of my family and no father is listed on my birth certificate.
    John P Walsh possibly had a sister also born in Dartford (1942) I cannot give you her full name as she may be still living, we don't allow the names of people living on the forums.

    You can search for her yourself, here https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl

    Enter Walsh for surname and Waterman for mother's maiden name, year 1942.
    Alma

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by christanel View Post
    Vera Constance and William A Walsh are on the 1939 register living at 280 Linthorpe Rd Middlesborough VB Yorkshire.
    Her birthday is 28 April 1909 and his 3 April 1912. So you are not going to find him on the 1911 census.
    There are three redacted names after theirs so no indication of how they fit in to the household.
    Using the birth date as a guide for John Walsh there is a birth of a William A Walsh registration district June 1/4 1912 registration district York vol 9d page 69 mother's maiden name Murray. 1900- 1912 in all of England and Wales there is only one marriage registration of a Murray to a Walsh and that is in the registration district of Southwark Dec 1/4 1912. Catherine Murray married William F Walsh.
    Christina
    Hi Christina
    Thank you.
    Still a little confused, but thats nothing new. How did you link John Walsh (YOB1944) to William A Walsh?
    Where does Charles Walsh come into things?
    Sorry for the million Questions.

    Ginny

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    Thank you so much, will do a search now

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by almach View Post
    Hi Kiwi Walsh, welcome to the British Genealogy Forums.

    Who was named as the informant on John P Walsh's death certificate? I ask as if the informant didn't know the deceased very well it did happen they would give a wrong name.

    I cannot see a Charles Walsh to relate to William A using surname and Mother's maiden name Murray.

    Did John P Walsh marry and if so do you have a copy of his marriage cert which should name his Father.

    Hi Alma

    The informant was the NZ Police, everything went through probate in 1970 and information on relatives was from his emigration details.

    As far as I am aware John Walsh was single when he came to New Zealand in 1966, but it is possible that he was running away from "issues" in the UK.

    I have his death certificate, and will be applying for his birth certificate as funds allow.

  8. #8
    Super Moderator - Completely bonkers and will never change.
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    Hi Kiwi_Walsh,

    Hold off on any further speculation about possible who, what, and whys until you have John's birth certificate in your hands. As Alma has said, if the informant on the death certificate didn't know the deceased very well, then incorrect information could be given.
    Just in case you don't know, all certificates should be ordered from
    https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
    Ignore the Passport Office heading; it is the correct link. Similar-sounding websites exist, but they (and some commercial sites) charge you an arm and a leg for ordering on your behalf from the GRO (which, apart from the local Registrar Offices), is the only place to have the BMD certificates.

    I did wonder why Vera was in Middlesborough in 1939, and then back in the Dartford area in 1942/44, but I assume she'd gone back to be with family as she was born and married in Dartford registration district.
    I did look to see if I could find William in the Commonwealth War Graves Commission as having died in the war, but no luck there. A search of the death registrations to 2007, finds a registration for a William Arthur Walsh, date of birth 3 April 1912 (matches the 1939 Register entry) in Tunbridge Wells registration district December quarter 1995.
    This seems likely to be him, as a Vera Constance Walsh, date of birth 28 April 1909, has a death registration in Tunbridge Wells registration district September quarter 2002.
    Interesting that William's occupation in 1939 was Clerk in Holy Orders (C of E).
    Can't see that William left a will, but Vera did, and (to the best of my knowledge) you can order a copy for £1.50 from https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills

    Pam
    Vulcan XH558 - “Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.”

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pam Downes View Post
    Hi Kiwi_Walsh,

    Hold off on any further speculation about possible who, what, and whys until you have John's birth certificate in your hands. As Alma has said, if the informant on the death certificate didn't know the deceased very well, then incorrect information could be given.
    Just in case you don't know, all certificates should be ordered from
    https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
    Ignore the Passport Office heading; it is the correct link. Similar-soundingand some websites exist, but they (and some commercial sites) charge you an arm and a leg for ordering on your behalf from the GRO (which, apart from the local Registrar Offices), is the only place to have the BMD certificates.

    I did wonder why Vera was in Middlesborough in 1939, and then back in the Dartford area in 1942/44, but I assume she'd gone back to be with family as she was born and married in Dartford registration district.
    I did look to see if I could find William in the Commonwealth War Graves Commission as having died in the war, but no luck there. A search of the death registrations to 2007, finds a registration for a William Arthur Walsh, date of birth 3 April 1912 (matches the 1939 Register entry) in Tunbridge Wells registration district December quarter 1995.
    This seems likely to be him, as a Vera Constance Walsh, date of birth 28 April 1909, has a death registration in Tunbridge Wells registration district September quarter 2002.
    Interesting that William's occupation in 1939 was Clerk in Holy Orders (C of E).
    Can't see that William left a will, but Vera did, and (to the best of my knowledge) you can order a copy for £1.50 from https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills

    Pam

    Hi Pam

    Thank you for that all that information, I will definitely be ordering Johns birth certificate next week. Hopefully that will clear up some mysteries.

    Just wishing now that I had looked into Johns details back in the 80's, maybe then I could have travelled to meet some of the family, and met his Mum. Too late now. But hopefully I can give my kids some idea of their English heritage and an opportunity to meet cousins they never knew about.

    I did wonder about the distance between the two locations, and why she would be travelling such a long way but as you say her family was all there. A Clerk in Holy Orders, thats a hoot, so Grandad had an imaginary friend :-) That actually tarries up with something my birth mother said about Johns Dad being a strict christian (I think she said Anglican) and how my birth would have been frowned upon.

    Wills are very personal things and I have no right to be looking at Vera's, that right belongs to her family who knew and loved her. I only want to confirm who my Dad was and maybe help my kids meet their long lost relatives.

    Thank you Pam

    Ginny

  10. #10
    Super Moderator - Completely bonkers and will never change.
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    Hi Ginny,

    I can understand your thinking about wills being 'private', and would never send off for random strangers' wills, but Vera is your granny and her will may contain vital information about her daughter and/or any children she had. i.e. your cousins.

    Once you have John's birth certificate (which, although I have been proved wrong before, I would be extremely surprised if it said anyone other than William was his father), then you will need Vera and William's marriage certificate to confirm that Vera's father was Bertie Edward Waterman and find out William's father's name and occupation. Then it's all systems go to find slightly more-distance cousins.

    Pam
    Vulcan XH558 - “Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.”

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