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  1. #1
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    Default Hitting that wall with Mays/Johns/Yeoman

    My ancestor is Richard May (1828-1888) born Portleven, married Gertrude Trenerry, died Melbourne. I have been working on this for years, thought I had it sorted and then uncovered further information that's thrown me off entirely. I am interested in Richard's siblings. Parents were John May (1784-1839) and Maria or Mary Johns (1791-1837). Apart from Richard there were 8 children - Francis Johns May, John Thomas May, Mary Ann May, Joseph May, William May, Thomas May, Samuel May & Francis Samuel May. John May was a miner and they moved around quite a bit. I am interested in William May, born 6 Dec 1823, St Allen (Bible Christian so exact birth dates)....is he the deceased in the OPC who died in the Cornwall Infirmary 1852 (coroner's inquiry) or did he marry Elizabeth Yeoman in 1845, live in St Blazey and have 3 children? Ages of these 2 alternative Williams seem to be the same and I have just not been able to differentiate them. I can't find a death for the married William. Also, his sister Mary Ann b.1819 - I cannot locate a death. And finally his children - Elizabeth Jane (1847-), Maria (1847-)and William (1850-)- where did they go? Last seen on 1871 census. The children of another brother migrated to Nebraska so that could be a possibility? Fresh eyes on this would be greatly appreciated! ;-)

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heather View Post
    My ancestor is Richard May (1828-1888) born Portleven, married Gertrude Trenerry, died Melbourne. I have been working on this for years, thought I had it sorted and then uncovered further information that's thrown me off entirely. I am interested in Richard's siblings. Parents were John May (1784-1839) and Maria or Mary Johns (1791-1837). Apart from Richard there were 8 children - Francis Johns May, John Thomas May, Mary Ann May, Joseph May, William May, Thomas May, Samuel May & Francis Samuel May. John May was a miner and they moved around quite a bit. I am interested in William May, born 6 Dec 1823, St Allen (Bible Christian so exact birth dates)....is he the deceased in the OPC who died in the Cornwall Infirmary 1852 (coroner's inquiry)
    What additional information do you have about this death? Do you have a copy of the death certificate, and if so, what are the details on it regarding date of death, age at death, occupation, and who registered the death?
    or did he marry Elizabeth Yeoman in 1845, live in St Blazey and have 3 children?
    William and Elizabeth in 1851. Living in St Blazey.
    Census reference HO107/1906 folio 207 page 20
    William MAY, 27, copper miner, born Gwennap
    Elizabeth, wife,26, St Austell
    Elizabeth, daur, St Blazey
    Maria, daur 3, St Blazey
    William, son, 7 months, St Blazey

    Does this William's birthplace of Gwennap match that of your William?

    Ages of these 2 alternative Williams seem to be the same and I have just not been able to differentiate them.
    What other details do you have for these two Williams? Have you found them both in the 1851 census? If so, what are the details for the on-who-isn't-married-to-Elizabeth?

    I can't find a death for the married William. Also, his sister Mary Ann b.1819 - I cannot locate a death. And finally his children - Elizabeth Jane (1847-), Maria (1847-)and William (1850-)- where did they go? Last seen on 1871 census. The children of another brother migrated to Nebraska so that could be a possibility? Fresh eyes on this would be greatly appreciated! ;-)
    What are their details in the 1861 and 1871 censuses?
    Pam
    Vulcan XH558 - “Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pam Downes View Post
    What additional information do you have about this death? Do you have a copy of the death certificate, and if so, what are the details on it regarding date of death, age at death, occupation, and who registered the death?Pam
    On the burials register: William May died in 1852 at the age of 29. Residence was the Cornwall Infirmary, Coroner's Inquiry. No occupation stated.St Austell.

    1841 census:

    1. William May, St Austell, sailor aged 20. Living with Fanny Johns (40) and Richard Johns (20)
    (Johns is his mother's name and his parents are both dead by this stage)

    2. William May, St Blazey, aged 15 (initials for occupation, don't know what they mean) living with:

    Mary May 20
    Philip Boswathricock 30
    Richd Prin 15
    Willm May 15
    Thos Scoler 15
    Jas Yeoman 12


    Quote Originally Posted by Pam Downes View Post
    Does this William's birthplace of Gwennap match that of your William?Pam
    The birth record I have says St Allen. The Truro Bible Christian Circuit covered Truro, St Clement, Kenwyn, St Allen, Kea, Gwennap, Grampound, Perranzabuloe, Probus, Creed, St Agnes, Tregony, Ladock, Zelah and Goonhavern, in Cornwall. Another census return says he was born in Kenwyn.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pam Downes View Post
    What other details do you have for these two Williams? Have you found them both in the 1851 census? If so, what are the details for the on-who-isn't-married-to-Elizabeth?Pam
    The second William is I believe the one who married Elizabeth Yeoman and I have them in the 1851, 1861, 1871 censuses. I can't find the first one in the 1851 census.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pam Downes View Post
    What are their details in the 1861 and 1871 censuses?
    Pam

    1861 census:
    Name: William May
    Age: 37
    Relation: Head
    Spouse's name: Elizabeth May
    Where born: Kenwin, Cornwall, England
    Civil Parish: St Blazey
    Ecclesiastical parish: Par
    Piece: 1546
    Folio: 138
    Page Number: 22
    Household Members:
    Name Age
    William May 37
    Elizabeth May 36
    Elizabeth J May 15
    William May 10

    1871 Census:

    Name: William May
    Age: 47
    Relation: Head
    Where born: Gwennap Cornwall England
    Civil Parish: St Blazey
    Ecclesiastical parish: Par
    Town: Edgecombe Row
    Piece: 2261
    Folio: 28
    Page Number: 12
    Household Members:
    Name Age
    William May 47
    Elizabeth May 46
    William May 20
    Elizabeth A Reed 12

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    William May, St Blazey, aged 15 (initials for occupation, don't know what they mean) l
    M.S. = male servant.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heather View Post
    On the burials register: William May died in 1852 at the age of 29. Residence was the Cornwall Infirmary, Coroner's Inquiry. No occupation stated.St Austell.
    A burials register is not the same as a death certificate, and (being super critical) that entry is almost useless because it gives neither a place nor date of burial.
    A death certificate will (usually) give a place and date of death, name, age at death, cause of death, occupation, and who registered the death.

    1841 census:

    1. William May, St Austell, sailor aged 20. Living with Fanny Johns (40) and Richard Johns (20)
    (Johns is his mother's name and his parents are both dead by this stage)
    Census reference HO/107/146/4 folio 44 page 7.
    Ages in the 1841 census of people older than 15 were supposed to be rounded-down to the nearest five. So someone aged 20 could be any age between 20 and 24.
    Looking at the way the names Thomas and Sarah are written on the opposite census page, and the occupation of sawyer on the same page as William are written, I think Wiliam's occupation says tailor. However this not rule out the possibility of the enumerator mistranscibing sailor to tailor on the census return.

    M.S. and F.S. mean male, and female, servant.

    Fanny Johns is not part of William and Richard's household. She's living with the previous family.

    2. William May, St Blazey, aged 15 (initials for occupation, don't know what they mean) living with:

    Mary May 20
    Philip Boswathricock 30
    Richd Prin 15
    Willm May 15
    Thos Scoler 15
    Jas Yeoman 12
    Census reference for William, Thos, and Jas, is HO107/146/6 folio 31 page 15. The other three are on page 14.

    Interestingly, if you look at page 14 living next door is an Elizabeth Yeoman, aged 15.
    Look a further few lines above Elizabeth and check out other Yeomans, and also their address.
    Check out the address for Yeoman baptisms in St Blazey 1815-1835.

    The marriage entry in the parish register for St Blazey (image 120 of 516 on FamilySearch in the England, Cornwall Parish Registers, 1538-2010 dataset unfortunately says that Elizabeth's father as Elizabeth Yeoman, labourer.
    William's father is John, a miner.

    The birth record I have says St Allen. The Truro Bible Christian Circuit covered Truro, St Clement, Kenwyn, St Allen, Kea, Gwennap, Grampound, Perranzabuloe, Probus, Creed, St Agnes, Tregony, Ladock, Zelah and Goonhavern, in Cornwall. Another census return says he was born in Kenwyn.

    The second William is I believe the one who married Elizabeth Yeoman and I have them in the 1851, 1861, 1871 censuses. I can't find the first one in the 1851 census.[
    I'm leaning more towards the second William being the one who married Elizabeth Yeoman.

    1861 census:
    Name: William May
    Age: 37
    Relation: Head
    Spouse's name: Elizabeth May
    Where born: Kenwin, Cornwall, England
    Civil Parish: St Blazey
    Ecclesiastical parish: Par
    Piece: 1546
    Folio: 138
    Page Number: 22
    Household Members:
    Name Age
    William May 37
    Elizabeth May 36
    Elizabeth J May 15
    William May 10

    1871 Census:

    Name: William May
    Age: 47
    Relation: Head
    Where born: Gwennap Cornwall England
    Civil Parish: St Blazey
    Ecclesiastical parish: Par
    Town: Edgecombe Row
    Piece: 2261
    Folio: 28
    Page Number: 12
    Household Members:
    Name Age
    William May 47
    Elizabeth May 46
    William May 20
    Elizabeth A Reed 12
    I have amended some of the details you previously gave because under our T&Cs, copy-and-paste is not allowed. (Section 6, A contribution must not 'infringe any copyright, database right or trade mark of any other person'.)
    It's much easier for people who are trying to help with a query if you write out the census details in the way I've written them out. That way we know for example where the children of William and Elizabeth were born, and helps when doing further searches for them.

    Pam
    Vulcan XH558 - “Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.”

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pam Downes View Post
    A burials register is not the same as a death certificate, and (being super critical) that entry is almost useless because it gives neither a place nor date of burial.
    A death certificate will (usually) give a place and date of death, name, age at death, cause of death, occupation, and who registered the death.Pam
    Yes, the burials register has not been helpful which is why I have asked for assistance. How do you get a death certificate if it isn't on Cornish OPC database?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pam Downes View Post
    The marriage entry in the parish register for St Blazey (image 120 of 516 on FamilySearch in the England, Cornwall Parish Registers, 1538-2010 dataset unfortunately says that Elizabeth's father as Elizabeth Yeoman, labourer.Pam
    Yes I asked the OPC about that and that is what is written on the register.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pam Downes View Post
    I'm leaning more towards the second William being the one who married Elizabeth Yeoman.Pam
    The second William definitely married Elizabeth, my question is, which William is mine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pam Downes View Post
    I have amended some of the details you previously gave because under our T&Cs, copy-and-paste is not allowed. (Section 6, A contribution must not 'infringe any copyright, database right or trade mark of any other person'.)
    It's much easier for people who are trying to help with a query if you write out the census details in the way I've written them out. That way we know for example where the children of William and Elizabeth were born, and helps when doing further searches for them. Pam

    I copied and pasted because it gives the direct reference making it easier to find the exact page but happy to delete. There is no copyright on the censuses.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heather View Post
    Yes, the burials register has not been helpful which is why I have asked for assistance. How do you get a death certificate if it isn't on Cornish OPC database?
    Since the introduction of civil registration on 1 July 1837, births, marriages, and deaths have been registered with the GRO (General Register Office)
    https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
    Once you've registered and signed in, you should get
    https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/c...cates/menu.asp
    Select 'search the indexes'.
    For what were previously regarded as 'historical records' they record details missing from the earlier GRO Index, namely mother's maiden name in births up to 1912, and ages at death up to 1866. FMP, Ancestry, and FreeBMD all use the original GRO Index. For births up to 1919, and deaths up to 1957 you can select an option to order a black-and-white PDF copy of the certificate for seven pounds as opposed to a full-colour certified copy for eleven pounds.
    Although as I don't think this is your William, it might be better to save your money.

    Yes I asked the OPC about that and that is what is written on the register.
    With the greatest of respect to all the transcribers at Cornwall at OPC (and everywhere else) I know from experience that even the most expert transcribers can make mistakes so you should always refer to the original entry whenever possible which is why I told you where you can find a copy of the parish register online.

    The second William definitely married Elizabeth, my question is, which William is mine?
    I think the second one, the one who married Elizabeth. His father's name and occupation fit. his age in the 1841 census is a better fit for him to be born in 1823. The one in St Austell is already 20-24 in 1841, meaning he was born between 1817 and 1821.
    Therefore, if this is your William, he can't be the one who died in 1852, because this one is alive in not only 1861 but also 1871.

    I copied and pasted because it gives the direct reference making it easier to find the exact page but happy to delete. There is no copyright on the censuses.
    So do HO107/1906 folio 207 page 20 or RG9/1546 folio 138 page 22. And they are much easier to read when trying to help people.
    If you notice, I did not the delete the details as regards the 'essential' information for finding the page. What I did delete was the 'unnecessary stuff' such as registration district, county, supposed year of birth, etc.

    There is no copyright as regards you transcribing what is written in a census. What is copyright is how that information is presented. So when you do copy-and-paste from a (usually) commercial site, though could also be non-commercial such as FamilySearch, you are breaching their copyright.

    Pam
    Vulcan XH558 - “Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pam Downes View Post
    Since the introduction of civil registration on 1 July 1837, births, marriages, and deaths have been registered with the GRO (General Register Office)
    https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
    Once you've registered and signed in, you should get
    https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/c...cates/menu.asp
    Select 'search the indexes'.
    For what were previously regarded as 'historical records' they record details missing from the earlier GRO Index, namely mother's maiden name in births up to 1912, and ages at death up to 1866. FMP, Ancestry, and FreeBMD all use the original GRO Index. For births up to 1919, and deaths up to 1957 you can select an option to order a black-and-white PDF copy of the certificate for seven pounds as opposed to a full-colour certified copy for eleven pounds.
    Although as I don't think this is your William, it might be better to save your money.
    Yes, thank you for the reminder - I have registered with them before and have ordered the certificate just to be sure.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pam Downes View Post
    With the greatest of respect to all the transcribers at Cornwall at OPC (and everywhere else) I know from experience that even the most expert transcribers can make mistakes so you should always refer to the original entry whenever possible which is why I told you where you can find a copy of the parish register online.
    The OPC did send me a digital image and it definitely said 'Elizabeth' for the bride's name. I also viewed it on Familysearch so whilst it was odd, (and unhelpful for research purposes) it wasn't something I was seeking assistance on.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pam Downes View Post
    I think the second one, the one who married Elizabeth. His father's name and occupation fit. his age in the 1841 census is a better fit for him to be born in 1823. The one in St Austell is already 20-24 in 1841, meaning he was born between 1817 and 1821.
    Therefore, if this is your William, he can't be the one who died in 1852, because this one is alive in not only 1861 but also 1871.
    I do believe you are right but the burial record for the first William is what is throwing me off because his age at death corresponds with the birth date of 1823. It may be that I just haven't found the correct census return for this William. Hopefully the death certificate will clear this up. Apparently it will take a week to get a PDF so I gather these records have not been digitised?


    Quote Originally Posted by Pam Downes View Post
    So do HO107/1906 folio 207 page 20 or RG9/1546 folio 138 page 22. And they are much easier to read when trying to help people.
    If you notice, I did not the delete the details as regards the 'essential' information for finding the page. What I did delete was the 'unnecessary stuff' such as registration district, county, supposed year of birth, etc.
    Ok, I've taken this on notice and won't do it again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pam Downes View Post
    There is no copyright as regards you transcribing what is written in a census. What is copyright is how that information is presented. So when you do copy-and-paste from a (usually) commercial site, though could also be non-commercial such as FamilySearch, you are breaching their copyright.
    I understand, but copying public domain information in rich text format without copying anything identifiable or unique to a particular website including formatting, logos etc. is not a breach of copyright. Copy-and-paste is a great time saving device I see no need to re-transcribe census material where it isn't necessary. We may just have to agree to disagree on this one.

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