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  1. #1

    Default Anderson - Edinburgh Carrickfergus & Belfast

    Hi

    I am trying to find the John Anderson who married Ellen Lockhart (abt 1844)(1923-1900) in Carrickfergus and then moved to Shankhill, Belfast. John was originally from Edinburgh. The marriage was before records were compulsory in 1845. Both families appear to come from a farming background, possibly in Duncrue, not professional and poor.

    They raised a family including Agnes Kennedy Richardson (nee Anderson)(1866-1945), William John Anderson (1845-1881), Samuel H Anderson (1851-1917) and David Anderson (1858-1936). From Agnes's baptism in Carrickfergus her parents are John Anderson and Ellen Lockhart - https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy....33/2300407.pdf

    William John was the eldest child and so I have been searching for a father William. Agnes is the second daughter and from her middle name I have been searching unsuccessfully for a Kennedy connection. John died between 1890 and 1900, Ellen died in 1900 a widow.

    I am stuck tracing back from Northern Ireland to Scotland. Thank you for any insights and advice you can kindly offer

  2. #2

    Default

    Welcome to the British Genealogy Forum, Tony.
    Have you tried Scotland’s People? They have the surviving pre-1855 parish registers.

    I can’t help much until I get home to my PC, but I suggest that you take a look at the information thread stuck at the top of he General Scotland forum. They may give you ideas.

  3. #3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lesley Robertson View Post
    Welcome to the British Genealogy Forum, Tony.
    Have you tried Scotlandís People? They have the surviving pre-1855 parish registers.

    I canít help much until I get home to my PC, but I suggest that you take a look at the information thread stuck at the top of he General Scotland forum. They may give you ideas.
    Thank you very much Lesley. I have tried Scotland's People and bought some records. I tried John, son of William, Midlothian, born around 1823. It found limited matches. In terms of siblings I have a range of possible: William, Edward, John, James and Samuel - all Anderson farmers in Ireland. From wills James is the brother of John, the rest I am not sure. The family say John was a servant in the Lockhart household and married Ellen. Perhaps I am not using this website properly?

    Ill begin to explore the links you mention on the top of the Scottish forum

    Thank you

  4. #4

    Default

    Hi
    You may have already seen these marriages but in case not both have Anderson Kennedy connections

    irst name(s) William
    Last name Anderson
    Marriage year 1838
    Marriage date 28 Oct 1838
    Marriage place Hamilton,Lanark,Scotland
    Spouse's first name(s) Susan
    Spouse's last name Kennedy
    Place Hamilton
    County Lanarkshire
    Country Scotland
    Record set Scotland Marriages 1561-1910
    Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
    Subcategory Parish Marriages
    Collections from Scotland, Great Britain

    .....................

    First name(s) John
    Last name Anderson
    Marriage year 1841
    Marriage date 24 Jun 1841
    Marriage place New Kilpatrick,Dunbarton,Scotland
    Spouse's first name(s) Elisabeth
    Spouse's last name Kennedy
    Place New Kilpatrick
    County Dunbartonshire
    Country Scotland
    Record set Scotland Marriages 1561-1910

    Peanut

  5. #5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by peanut View Post
    Hi
    You may have already seen these marriages but in case not both have Anderson Kennedy connections

    irst name(s) William
    Last name Anderson
    Marriage year 1838
    Marriage date 28 Oct 1838
    Marriage place Hamilton,Lanark,Scotland
    Spouse's first name(s) Susan
    Spouse's last name Kennedy
    Place Hamilton
    County Lanarkshire
    Country Scotland
    Record set Scotland Marriages 1561-1910
    Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
    Subcategory Parish Marriages
    Collections from Scotland, Great Britain

    .....................

    First name(s) John
    Last name Anderson
    Marriage year 1841
    Marriage date 24 Jun 1841
    Marriage place New Kilpatrick,Dunbarton,Scotland
    Spouse's first name(s) Elisabeth
    Spouse's last name Kennedy
    Place New Kilpatrick
    County Dunbartonshire
    Country Scotland
    Record set Scotland Marriages 1561-1910

    Peanut
    Thank you very much. I have not seen these marriages. I need them a generation earlier ~1820 with a son John born thereafter. Ill check to see if I can find more family detail. I am literally starting on Scottish records properly this week. Thank you

  6. #6

    Default

    Hi Tony

    Sorry i got a bit mixed up, i was looking for John born about 1844 parents

    Peanut

  7. #7
    Knowledgeable and helpful
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Co. Antrim, Northern Ireland
    Posts
    587

    Default

    Statutory registration of all marriages in Ireland, save for RC, began on 1st April 1845. If your couple married before that you need to look up church records. Not all have survived and of those that do still exist, not all are on-line. You will probably need to go to PRONI in Belfast (or get someone else to do that for you) to search the records.

    Tradition was to marry in the bride’s church, after which she would normally attend her husband’s. So the marriage and childrens’ baptisms may not be in the same church. Ideally therefore you need to know what denomination Ellen was before she married.

    I see from the 1901 & 1911 censuses that by that period the family were Brethren:

    https://www.census.nationalarchives....Street/949029/

    https://www.census.nationalarchives....Street/151975/

    It’s dangerous to generalize but many Brethren were originally Presbyterians who sought a stricter interpretation of the gospels and so changed denomination. There was a big surge after the religious revival of 1858/9.

    Your options for Carrickfergus in 1843/44 are:

    Church of Ireland (records start 1740)
    1st Carrickfergus Presbyterian (records start 1823)
    Carrickfergus Congregational church (records start 1824, but 1844 &45 are missing)

    There was also a Presbyterian church in Woodburn (where the family were living in 1866) but I think it only opened in 1863. It certainly has no records before that year.

    If the family was Brethren in 1843/44, then they would have had to marry in another denomination’s church eg Presbyterian. (Brethren don’t have Ministers or anyone who can marry them, and so marry in a Register Office. However that was only introduced in Ireland in April 1845. So before that they would have had to go to a church with a Minister).

    Researchers in the PRONI area: https://sgni.net

    I wouldn’t expect too much from a pre 1845 marriage record in Ireland. Often all you get are the couples names, the date and their 2 witnesses. Sometimes a townland (address) and occupation. Rarely parents names.
    ELWYN

  8. #8

    Default

    Thank you Elwyn and Peanut

    The marriage was in Ireland, their eldest son, William John was born in 1845 in Carrickfergus. I have his birth record but not the marriage. As per Elwyn's comments finding the marriage record is a visit to Proni or the church's mentioned

    Elwyn - This link does not work for me - "Researchers in the PRONI area: https://sgni.net" - are you suggesting I can hire a researcher at Proni - I'll be pleased to do that to help resolve this mystery. Is that what you are suggesting?

    My real lack of understanding is how to find John in Midlothian, Leith/Edinburgh - am I looking for john, son of William plus perhaps John's brother James and how do the middle names - Kennedy, Hamilton - play into John's parents and their parents? My assumption is that John died in 1896, born in 1823 which means he is 18 in the 1841 Scottish census and married aged 21 in Ireland in 1844 (first son born 1845 William John). John could have been born earlier but not later

    Thank you for your assistance. It's much appreciated

  9. #9
    Knowledgeable and helpful
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Co. Antrim, Northern Ireland
    Posts
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    Default

    The link should take you to the Society of Genealogists in Northern Ireland. Try this link, but if not google them by their name.

    https://sgni.net

    Their e-mail contact is: secretary@sgni.net

    They are independent genealogical researchers in the Belfast area. They are not employed by PRONI. PRONI will also usually do simple searches for you eg for a known baptism or marriage at a known church. They won’t do trawling searches (because it can be open ended and time consuming). And they can be quite expensive. You would need to confirm their charges with them, but I think its something like £18 per 15 minutes. You may need to shop around to get the best value.
    ELWYN

  10. #10
    Knowledgeable and helpful
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Co. Antrim, Northern Ireland
    Posts
    587

    Default

    Tonyt071,

    Further to the above, you say you have assumed John Anderson died in 1896 and was born in 1823. I can only see one death in Belfast that fits that information. He died 11.10.1896 in Cooke St, Belfast. He was a widower which suggests to me he can’t be the correct John (if your Ellen died in 1900).

    What information do you have about John to show when he was alive?

    I’d also be cautious about the middle names. Presbyterians did often use a mother’s maiden name as a middle name. However they also did that for folk they respected eg the local Minister or schoolteacher. They might be family clues but they could also be completely irrelevant.
    ELWYN

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