Father's name column

[toaster]

Hi there,

I have traced one line to a John Parry, and it seems he married at least twice. I have two marriage certificates which seem to indicate the same person. I am, however, wondering about the father's name part.

On one certificate he married a Margaret Parry and they both list their father's as an Owen Parry.
The other certificate he married an Eleanor Owen, but she also has her father as Owen Parry.

I am very confused. The only thing I can think is that either they just made a mistake with the entry and just put John Parry's father twice? Or perhaps she didn't know who her father was?

What do you think?

Here are the certificates:

[toaster]

I have these possible death records for Eleanor:
OWEN, ELEANOR 38 GRO Reference: 1851 J Quarter in OF THE ANGLESEY UNION Volume 27 Page 324
OWEN, ELEANOR 22 GRO Reference: 1843 D Quarter in OF THE ANGLESEY UNION Volume 27 Page 256

I think I found the birth record for Eleanor 22. It lists her father's name as John Owen.

1820
Birth place Rhydwyn Baptist,Llanrhyddlad,Anglesey,Wales
Baptism year -
Baptism date -
Father's first name(s) John
Father's last name Owen
Mother's first name(s) Elizabeth

I found one census record in 1941 for an Eleanor Owen of around the same age, but didn't really find anything that could help.

I do wonder also whether Margaret Parry's father was called Owen or not.

[toaster]

I do wonder also whether Margaret Parry's father was called Owen or not.

I found a birth of a Margaret Jones the same town listed as her birth in the census, Ceirchiog. I also noticed that both of the witnesses had the surname of Jones. Ismael and Lewis, but I didn't find much on their births (the information didn't match with the record for Margaret Jones I found), nor in their census. Ismael had a family in 1841, but that's all I've got.


First name(s) Margaret
Last name Jones
Birth year 1816
Birth date ? ? 1816
Baptism year 1816
Baptism date 09 Mar 1816
Place Ceirchiog
County Anglesey
Country Wales
Father's first name(s) Henry
Mother's first name(s) Margaret

[toaster]

No, I checked again the births of Owen, John, and Thomas (all listed in the 61 census), and whilst their surname is listed Parry, their mother's maiden name is also listed as Parry. So both John and Margaret's father may have been called Owen (though I'd say it's almost certain for John). His first wife Eleanor is a little more difficult to work out though!

[Pam Downes]

I have these possible death records for Eleanor:
OWEN, ELEANOR 38 GRO Reference: 1851 J Quarter in OF THE ANGLESEY UNION Volume 27 Page 324
OWEN, ELEANOR 22 GRO Reference: 1843 D Quarter in OF THE ANGLESEY UNION Volume 27 Page 256

If you're looking for a death registration so that John Parry is a widower before his second marriage, then you need to look for a death for an Eleanor Parry. ('Tis an easy mistake to make. I once spent about fifteen minutes hauling original GRO ledgers off shelves looking for my granny's death registration reference. Knew when and where she died, so was getting angrier by the minute at not finding it. Then the penny dropped - I'd been searching under her maiden name. )

See if you can find any likely birth and death registrations for children John and Eleanor may have had, and search parish registers for baptisms and burials. Eleanor may have died in pregnancy or shortly after giving birth.

Pam

[Megan Roberts]

It wouldn't surprise me if they were all called Owen, however you are now back at a time when patronymics were alive and leap out to thwart the unwary family historian 150 years later.

This may be the first time that you've come across this topic so the link below can probably explain it better than I although it equally applied to the female side.

https://welshpatronymics.blogspot.com

[Megan Roberts]

In terms of the various places that you are coming across it's probably quite useful for you to bookmark https://www.genuki.org.uk/gazetteer because that will bring up the places on a map and if you click on each place you read more info about it.

[almach]

Hi Megan,

I looked at this query last night and did wonder about Welsh patronymics but my knowledge regarding Welsh ancestry is practically zero. I decided to leave it, confident that one who has more expertise in patronymics, and Welsh place names would answer. Thank you,

[Megan Roberts]

Hi Megan,

I looked at this query last night and did wonder about Welsh patronymics but my knowledge regarding Welsh ancestry is practically zero. I decided to leave it, confident that one who has more expertise in patronymics, and Welsh place names would answer. Thank you,

I'm not certain about more knowledge, but it has to be considered that she could have been Eleanor ferch Owen or Eleanor daughter of Owen, and that he was Owen ap Harri (Owen son of Harri), with Harri mutating to Parry.

[helachau]

It's a bit of a puzzle!! On the wedding cert both John and Margaret give their residence as Pengroeslon, Ceirchiog

1851 Census - ref HO107 2520 334 5
Address - transcribed as Penycroeston, but looking at the original I see Penycroeslon. Nearby places listed on the Census sheet are Vach, Hen Gabel, Perthrhiw

John Pary, Head, Marr, 32, Labourer, born Ceirciog
Margaret Pary, Wife (crossed out?), Marr (crossed out?),born Ceirciog
Mary, dau, 8; John, son 6, Ellin, dau 2; - all born Ceirciog

Re. the crossing out, I can see the Enumerator's usual ticking/crossing through but Margret's entries look to be crossed through in addition.

1861 Census - ref RG09 4363 53 6
Address transcribed as Pen'r Orsedd - it should read Pengroeslon
John Parry, Head, Marr, 42, Farmer of 2 acres, born Ceirchiog
Margaret Parry, Wife, Marr46, born Ceirchiog
Henry, Son,7; Owen, Son 4; Thomas, son 2 - all born Ceirchiog

Places nearby listed on the Census Fach, Hen Gapel, Perth y Rhiw