Second opinion (Census for Roberts family)

[toaster]

Hi there,

I've been trying to find my g-grandmother's family, and I think I've found it, though I wanted to get a second opinion before I start looking to get any paperwork.

Here are the known or documented facts I have on her right now:

Annie Roberts
B 1884 or 1885 somewhere in wales (Caeathrow is listed in the 1911 census)
Married Fifth July 1909 to John Henry Parry
D about 1924 (my grandfather said he was about 14 when she died, and that she was in her 30s)
Father: Robert Roberts (deceased before 1909 according to marriage cert), Bricklayer
A marriage witness of: Owen Roberts
Address 16 Southey Street, Bootle (at the time of marriage, also same on my grandfathers b-certificate)
My grandfather apparently grew up at Southey Street.

Here's what I found.

--
I searched the address 16 Southey Street in the 1911 census, and found one person there by the name of Ellen Roberts, 65, widowed, originally from Anglesey, who had a total of 10 children, 7 still living. I found this odd, because my grandfather was born (in 1910) and apparently grew up in that house, but his 1911 census record was at a nearby address in Keats Street.

My theory is that this was the family home, my grandfather was born there because her mother probably helped with the birth, and they moved in with her at some point.
--

1901 census (West Derby, Bootle)
Ellen Roberts (widowed)
55
Anglesey

Annie Roberts - 16
Owen Roberts - 18
Ellen Roberts - 23
Eleazer Roberts - 20
Robert Roberts - 28

--
1881 census (Llanrug)

Ellen Roberts
34 (not 35 as expected...)

(Husband) Robert Roberts - 40 (general labourer)
Robert Roberts - 7
Ellen Roberts - 3
William Roberts - 14
John Roberts - 10
Eliazer Roberts - 12 months.

--
1871 census (Llanrug)

Ellen Roberts
25
Born Llangeinwen, Anglesey

(Husband) Robert Roberts - 29 (labourer)
William Roberts - 4
Ann Roberts - 2
John Roberts - 12 months

---

Any thoughts? Does anyone think this is the right/wrong family? I've missed the 1891 census entry (I misplaced it), but I'm pretty sure I did find one for 1891 too, and counted 9 children in total.

Apologies for the fairly long post!

[Pam Downes]

It seems to match, apart from Annie's alleged birthplace in 1911
One important thing you forgot to clarify was Annie's age on her marriage certificate to John Henry Parry. Is it compatible (give or take a year) with a birth in 1884/1885?

To find the birth registrations of Ellen's children, start by searching the GRO's birth indexes for that of Eleazer, registered in Carnarvon registration district in 1880. Link to the index is in post #2 of your John Henry Parry thread. Once you have a mother's maiden name, you can search for the other birth registrations and compare them to the census entries.

1891 census entry is RG12/4660 folio 91 page 24, living in Llanbeblig. Ellen's 44.

Looking at the formation of the letters of her birthplace, I can understand how the 1901 enumerator managed to transcribe it as Dwyrain.

Pam

[Lesley Robertson]

Don’t forget that addresses shown in the census only show where the person slept on census night. Not their home address. Who else was living where you found your grandfather in 1911?

[Megan Roberts]

Without documentary or family history saying that Grandpa had brothers called x and y it's always difficult to be certain, but it is worth looking to see if there are any names shared between Annie's children and those of Ellen's.

In terms of the locations listed Annie is said to be from the parish of LLANGEINWEN on Anglesey, which includes the village of DWYRAN. This parish is right on the Menai Straits opposite Caernarfon and there were frequent ferry boats crossing the Straits.

Llanbeblig referred to in the 1891 census above is the parish name for Caernarfon town. Note the whole family is said to be monoglot Welsh.

I don't see a conflict between Caeathro and Carnarvon being given as Annie's places of birth, because the former is a small hamlet a few miles from the latter, and if the family were not literate and were relying on others to fill in the returns it becomes far easier to say Carnarvon.

Eleazar Owen Roberts birth registration - J quarter 1880 Carnarvon Vol 11B Page 523 mother's maiden name: Ellis.

[toaster]

Don’t forget that addresses shown in the census only show where the person slept on census night. Not their home address. Who else was living where you found your grandfather in 1911?

Nobody else was living there, apart from my grandfather and his mother. John Henry Parry worked at sea, so he may have been away when it was carried out. I have photos of John Henry Parry's parents which Megan Roberts from the brickwall topic helped me find, but whilst I can see a resemblance with Annie's family, I can't see it with John Henry's. I can see a strong resemblance between John Henry and his family though.

I know people don't necessarily look similar just because of their heritage, but I don't think John Henry's family looks anything like his sons children. Even though John Henry Parry had several siblings, I'm not picking up a strong DNA presence with the Parry surname either.

It seems to match, apart from Annie's alleged birthplace in 1911
One important thing you forgot to clarify was Annie's age on her marriage certificate to John Henry Parry. Is it compatible (give or take a year) with a birth in 1884/1885?

To find the birth registrations of Ellen's children, start by searching the GRO's birth indexes for that of Eleazer, registered in Carnarvon registration district in 1880. Link to the index is in post #2 of your John Henry Parry thread. Once you have a mother's maiden name, you can search for the other birth registrations and compare them to the census entries.

1891 census entry is RG12/4660 folio 91 page 24, living in Llanbeblig. Ellen's 44.

Looking at the formation of the letters of her birthplace, I can understand how the 1901 enumerator managed to transcribe it as Dwyrain.

Pam

Eleazar Owen Roberts birth registration - J quarter 1880 Carnarvon Vol 11B Page 523 mother's maiden name: Ellis.

I did some searching for all of them (espeically Eleazer), but I couldn't find a matching birth record for Eleazer (where did you find it Megan! :O).

I found a picture of a Eleazer Roberts from bootle, in a record of his work as a stoker, (in which he shows a what I think is a reasonably strong resemblance to my g-grandmother, and some resemblance to my immediate family) but I get one birth record, and 2 death records for anyone called Eleazer in the UK.

One is Eleazer O Roberts who died in Crosby (which I suppose must be him) - close to Bootle. The other is Eleazer Alexander Roberts, but he was born at the same time that his apparent family was living in North Wales. There's no death record of him either (or at least in my searches).

I've attached the mugshots of Annie and Eleazer so you can see how they look.



The photo of Annie was given to my mother by her sister.

[Megan Roberts]

Birth Registration found at https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/c...xes_search.asp

Interestingly I couldn't see it on Findmypast.

[toaster]

Yes I have been searching on Findmypast, and ancestry and didn't get them! Thanks - now I know to search on gro more often!

I found records for Ann Roberts, with the mothers maiden name as Ellis (In the likely death record, her name is listed as Ann rather than Annie, and my mum was told her name was Ann by her father). I imagine Annie was more of a nickname that stuck throughout the years.

I found a matching record for Owen too. Looks like Ellis is the maiden name! Thanks a lot Megan! (Yet again!)

[Pam Downes]

Without documentary or family history saying that Grandpa had brothers called x and y it's always difficult to be certain, but it is worth looking to see if there are any names shared between Annie's children and those of Ellen's.

In terms of the locations listed Annie is said to be from the parish of LLANGEINWEN on Anglesey, which includes the village of DWYRAN. This parish is right on the Menai Straits opposite Caernarfon and there were frequent ferry boats crossing the Straits.

Llanbeblig referred to in the 1891 census above is the parish name for Caernarfon town. Note the whole family is said to be monoglot Welsh.

I don't see a conflict between Caeathro and Carnarvon being given as Annie's places of birth, because the former is a small hamlet a few miles from the latter, and if the family were not literate and were relying on others to fill in the returns it becomes far easier to say Carnarvon.

Eleazar Owen Roberts birth registration - J quarter 1880 Carnarvon Vol 11B Page 523 mother's maiden name: Ellis.

Thanks for all the 'insider' (aka Welsh local knowledge), Megan. Especially Dwyran, which I'd convinced myself was the enumerator mangling a very-badly written Llanbeblig.

Yes I have been searching on Findmypast, and ancestry and didn't get them! Thanks - now I know to search on gro more often!

I found records for Ann Roberts, with the mothers maiden name as Ellis (In the likely death record, her name is listed as Ann rather than Annie, and my mum was told her name was Ann by her father). I imagine Annie was more of a nickname that stuck throughout the years.

I found a matching record for Owen too. Looks like Ellis is the maiden name! Thanks a lot Megan! (Yet again!)

If I say always use the GRO's own site for births prior to 1912 it's because that's the index which shows the mother's maiden name, if given, on the birth certificate. (No MMN usually indicates an illegitimate birth.) The original GRO Index which is used by FreeBMD and Ancestry didn't show the MMN until September quarter 1911. FMP are gradually updating their original GRO Index to include MMN from the beginning.

Slightly off-topic, but the GRO's own site also shows age at death from the beginning of the Index. The original Index (again, as per FreeBMD and Ancestry) doesn't show it until 1866.

The reason you can only find Eleazer on the GRO's own site is because everyone else has (mis)transcribed the entry as Eleanor Owen. If you click on the 'specs' symbol against the entry on FreeBMD you can click on a link to the original page and you will see that it's clearly Eleazer. I have advised FreeBMD and FMP of the error.

I did actually tell you how to find Eleazer's birth registration in post #2 of this thread, but probably didn't make it clear enough that it was the GRO's own site. Though if you'd gone to the John Henry Parry thread as instructed, you would have found the link.

Pam

[toaster]

Sorry Pam, you are correct! I have used gro to search for records in the past, but naively thought that findmypast would suffice. Thanks for the help! I will definitely use gro for seaches more often now (rather than just certificates).

[Pam Downes]

You do need the certificates for at least your direct line, but the the GRO's own site is extremely helpful in confirming other siblings as in this case. Have you found all ten of Ellen's children yet?

Pam