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  1. #1

    Default Double entries problem in GRO

    Hi everyone,

    I'm have trouble getting hold of a birth certificate for one of my ancestors. His GRO index is the same as someone else with the same name. When I try ordering it I get a refund and a message saying -

    "We have been unable to process your application, please refer to the paragraph below.

    We have found more than one entry which matches the details you have supplied therefore it is not possible to identify the entry you require.

    A full refund of £7.00 has been credited to your account via WorldPay

    If you have any questions concerning this order contact us using our online complaints form https://eforms.homeoffice.gov.uk/out...e_Service.ofml or phone +44 0300 123 1837. Lines are open Monday to Friday 8am to 8pm and Saturday 9am to 4pm."

    I have tried emailing but only got a holding reply and no other response. Has anyone else had this problem, and how do I overcome it? Do I order both certificates, but then will they simply see a duplicated order and give me the same message?

    Don

  2. #2
    Super Moderator - Completely bonkers and will never change.
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    Hello Don,

    Welcome to British-Genealogy.

    It's much easier to give an answer if you tell us what you're looking at. We need to know the name, the year and quarter, the registration district, and the volume and page numbers.
    Do you know the maiden name of your ancestor's mother? Alternatively, what else do you know about him? e.g. names of siblings, when he died.

    Pam
    Vulcan XH558 - “Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.”

  3. #3

    Default

    Hello Pam,

    My ancestor is John Davies. I have a record of his baptism 17th November 1940 in Aberystwyth. I know his father was Evans Davies and his mother was Sarah. So, I have searched for John Davies born in Aberystwyth in 1840 in FinfMyPast and there are four listed who were born in Oct/Dec 1840. Their GRO index references are -
    Aberystwyth 27, 22 Jones
    Aberystwyth 27, 28 Morgans
    Aberystwyth 27, 22 Jones
    Aberystwyth 27, 1 Davies

    27, 28 I ordered and he father is Lewis Davies, so the wrong one.
    27, 22 I ordered but got the GRO message about two with the same index so got a refund and no certificate. I then ordered both 27, 22s and got one received, with the father as John Davies. Is this a simple duplicate of one entry? I don't know.
    27, 1 I ordered and gain got the message in my first post, although there is only one 27, 1 JOhn Davies lised in my search.

    I am confused therefore what is going on. And how do I order something for which I have the GRO reference but they insist there are two entries with the same name? Do I just try and order the same thing twice again?

    Don

  4. #4
    Super Moderator - Completely bonkers and will never change.
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    Oh my goodness me.
    Everyone's nightmare - Welsh ancestors!

    Might have to look at this sideways.

    First of all, the 'new' GRO Index https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
    shows only three John Davies' birth registrations in Aberystwyth registration district, December quarter 1840.
    One on page number 22 has a mother's maiden name of Jones.
    Another on page 22 has mother's maiden name of Richard.
    The third one, on page 28, has a mother's maiden name of Morgan.

    I have a record of his baptism 17th November 1940 in Aberystwyth. I know his father was Evans Davies and his mother was Sarah.
    First of all, I assume you made a typo with the year, and you mean 1840.
    I also assume that you mean Aberystwyth town, as opposed to Aberystwyth registration district. The two are slightly different. See the list of places in the registration district here. https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/aberystwyth.html

    Is the knowledge of John's parents being Evan and Sarah based solely on this baptism record?

    Do you have John's marriage certificate which confirms that his father is Evan?
    If not, then that marriage certificate is an absolute essential-must-buy document.

    Have you found John with his parents on any census?

    I found one John in the 1841 census with Evan as the head of the family, but his assumed wife (no actual relationships are given in the 1841 census is Anne. They're living in Llanrhystyd. Census reference HO107/1373/9 folio 26 page 14. John's age says 2 followed by months which has been crossed out. But if John really was two months old then he would have been born circa March/April 1841 as the census was taken on the night of 6 June.

    The other fly in the ointment is that not every birth prior to 1874 was registered, and your John could have been one of those.

    Brilliant. As in 'not'. Just found John's baptism record - father's occupation - master mariner. So it's highly likely that he won't be found with John in the census.
    Might have found that John and Sarah in the 1841 census though.
    Sarah Davies, 30, seaman's wife (crossed through)
    James, 4
    John, 1
    All born in county.
    Address Mary Street, Llanbadarn-Fawr, Aberystwyth. Census reference HO107/1372/2 folio 16 page 25

    And this looks like that Sarah and John in 1851. Living in Llanbadarn Fawr, Aberystwyth. Census reference HO107/2485 folio 306 page 66.

    Need more work to prove this is your John. I'm just saying that these seem to match the baptism record you've found.

    And just to put a great big fly in the ointment.
    1851 Also living in Llanbadarn Fawr, Aberystwyth
    census reference HO107/2485 folio 227 page 28
    Sarah, 41, sailor's wife
    John, 12,
    With Margaret, William, David, and Thomas.

    I have a headache!

    So the main question at the moment is do you have John's marriage certificate?
    Have you found him on any census with his parents and known siblings? If so, we need the census references please and then we can try and trace his siblings in the GRO Index to check for mother's maiden name.

    Forgot to add that I limited my census searches to Aberystwyth registration district.

    Pam
    Vulcan XH558 - “Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.”

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    I was going to suggest that you phone them, but as you are looking for Welsh ancestors I might be more cautious with that based on my dealings with them.

    However, one thing I noticed from your post was that you identified the father as Evans. Now if for some reason it's written on the certificate as simply Evan, that could be enough for your application to be rejected, since usually they look to find exact matches.

    Have you thought of contacting the local record office, which is part of the county council to see if they have an historic certificate service? It might be a little more expensive but it's likely to be more accurate.
    https://www.archifdy-ceredigion.org.uk

  6. #6
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    If you know the father's name and the GRO reference is ambiguous, why aren't you using option 3 "I want GRO to search..." Personally I'd enter father's forename = Evan or Evans.

    Be prepared for the possibility that the birth you want wasn't registered.

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    Rather than dealing with the GRO, you might get better service from the local register office - in this case Ceredigion at

    https://www.ceredigion.gov.uk/reside...opening-hours/

    Most local register offices are very helpful, and although you can't order a certificate from Ceredigion over the phone, you can ring them for help and advice on how to fill out the application. Their local knowledge is also often useful in distinguishing between similar entries.

    The only drawback is that local offices don't do pdf copies, so you'll have to pay a bit extra to get a formal certified copy.

  8. #8

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    Thanks everyone for the replies. And my apologies both for my extremely bad typing in my earlier message, and the delay in replying (been very busy with work and then ill).

    I do have his marriage certificate on 5 Jan 1866 at Llanbadarnfawr, with his father given as Evan Davies, mariner.
    His baptism record gives his father as Evan Davies, mariner, and mother as Sarah, living at Trefechan in Llanbadarnfawr. There is an 1841 census for Sarah and John at Trefechan - not Evan, I assume away at sea. An 1851 census gives Sarah and John living at Gray's Inn Lane in Aberystwyth, describing Sarah as a mariner's wife (with Evan again I assume away at sea).

    His marriage certificate was witnessed by James Davies - possibly his a brother? The 1841 census entry has Anne and Morris and elder sister and brother. It looks like the one Pam found for 1841 living at Mary Street is the right census entry and mine the wrong one.

    Yes, Welsh ancestry is a big headache!!!! All the surnames on my mothers side of the family - Jones, Ellis, Davies, Williams, Evans, Mason, Thomas and Lewis. Why couldn't there have been a Clutterbuck instead?

    Thanks again,
    Don

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    Quote Originally Posted by DonaldHenson View Post

    Yes, Welsh ancestry is a big headache!!!! All the surnames on my mothers side of the family - Jones, Ellis, Davies, Williams, Evans, Mason, Thomas and Lewis. Why couldn't there have been a Clutterbuck instead?

    Thanks again,
    Don
    No it's not that bad - you haven't got a Jones nor do you seem to have hit the patronymics!

    John was baptised 17 Nov 1840 at St Michael's and All Angels, Aberystwyth, and his father was a Master Mariner.
    He had a sister Sarah who was baptised 20 Sep 1843 in the same church, also a brother William was baptised there 16 Oct 1836, at which time their father was just a mariner. In all 3 cases the place of abode was Trefechan.

    There may have been other siblings but I have only done a fairly cursory search.

    I checked the GRO birth index for both John and Sarah to see if I could find a common mother's maiden name but unfortunately drew a blank. However, there was only 1 Sarah Davies birth registered in 1843 in Aberystwyth, and that birth registration has the mother's maiden name as Bevan.

    As you progress in your search you might find some useful information on the following sites:
    https://www.welshmariners.org.uk/n_intro.php
    https://www.library.wales

    The latter has Wills pre 1858 and free access to Welsh newspapers, most of which are in English, prior to 1919 - All on line. As well as many other useful resources.

  10. #10
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    I have now found some more baptisms:
    Aberystwyth, St Michael & All Angels

    19 Nov 1826 - James

    15 Mar 1829 - Evan

    24 Mar 1833 – Mary

    12 Oct 1834 – Morris

    I also found this marriage by Banns:

    Llanbadarn Fawr:

    Evan Davies, bachelor 3 Nov 1822 and Sarah Bevan, spinster
    Witnesses: David Bevan and Morris Davies

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