Joseph Smith Cheltenham??

[blacklace]

I've found the banns for Margaret and Charles, Margaret's father is Thomas Smith, and Charles's is Lars.

Margaret Johnson was living with her mother ANN SMITH (b 1811 in Galway Ireland) in 1881 in Cheltenham, she was a mantle maker (as was her mother), the banns from her wedding stated that Charles was a cabinet maker.

However the birth date from the census and banns don't match. The census in 1871 (living with Mary) says she was born approx 1841, 1881 census says she was born in 1843 (could be possible depending when the census was taken), but the banns says she was born 1838 (she was 27 in 1865).

Ann Smith was also living with Mary and the kids in the 1871 Census, but she was born in Cheltenham, Ann was a Charwoman, Margaret was a homemaker (I think!).

If Charles was married to the Margaret living with my great grandmother, could he have taught them a skill, so they could help in the business??. but the difference in places of birth for Ann is confusing, could the census taker have made a mistake??

EDIT: I've just noticed the age difference between the 1871 and 1881 Ann Smiths and Margaret's is different (19 in 1871, 32 in 1881).

If Ann Smith in 1871 is Margarets Sister then the Ann Smith in 1881 would have been 11 when she gave birth to her namesake...

I think I'm as far away from getting an answer than ever..

[brentor boy]

In 1871 Charles W Johnson, age 38, born Neuchatel, Switzerland. Upholsterer. Married. Lodger. Living Cheltenham.

[Lesley Robertson]

There were/are a lot of Smiths around!

There no real short-cuts. You need to get Louise's birth certificate. That will confirm Joseph as her father and confirm whether or not Joseph and Mary were married.
An easy way to order English birth certs is via FreeBMD - find her birth, and there's a button to connect you to the official site to order it. You CAN order through many of the commercial sites, but they will charge you extra for the service.

[blacklace]

There were/are a lot of Smiths around!

There no real short-cuts. You need to get Louise's birth certificate. That will confirm Joseph as her father and confirm whether or not Joseph and Mary were married.
An easy way to order English birth certs is via FreeBMD - find her birth, and there's a button to connect you to the official site to order it. You CAN order through many of the commercial sites, but they will charge you extra for the service.

I've just ordered it, thanks. will find out in a few days

[Jomot1]

A word of caution on the birth certificate - they aren't always true.

My GG Grandmother named her husband on the birth certificates of all of her children, but when the youngest four were born he was actually living in America and 'married' to someone else.

To try & trace Joseph - whether he is the biological father or not - I would suggest that the marriage certificate would be your better bet, as this should give you his age, occupation & address at the time, along with his father's name & occupation (but bear in mind that people weren't always truthful on these either!) The witnesses may also help.

[blacklace]

A word of caution on the birth certificate - they aren't always true.

My GG Grandmother named her husband on the birth certificates of all of her children, but when the youngest four were born he was actually living in America and 'married' to someone else.

To try & trace Joseph - whether he is the biological father or not - I would suggest that the marriage certificate would be your better bet, as this should give you his age, occupation & address at the time, along with his father's name & occupation (but bear in mind that people weren't always truthful on these either!) The witnesses may also help.

The problem is, I can't find a marriage between them.

Edit: Tell a lie, I've found the register

If Joseph and Mary were married in 1866 as FreeBMD states then the oldest daughter (Sarah Ann) was born out of wedlock as she was 9 in 1871

[Jomot1]

I'm having a few difficulties trying to post an attachment, but there is a newspaper article in the Fife Herald 2 Nov 1871:

BIGAMY - At Rochdale Police Court, Joseph Smith, a young man, was charged with Bigamy. Ann Richings, of Cheltenham, stated that in 1866 she was present when the prisoner was married to Mary Ann Ritchings and, some months after, he deserted her. She had only one child by him. Ann Graham next stated that the prisoner met her at Warrington and, in March 1869, he was married to her at the old Parish Church at Warrington. He lived with her until she had pledged all her clothes and spent all her money, and then he deserted her. Detective Sergeant Marshall gave evidence as to the prisoner having been given into custody at Cheltenham, where he had returned to his first wife. The prisoner had nothing to say in answer to the charge, and the magistrates committed him to the assizes for trial.

[Jomot1]

If Joseph and Mary were married in 1866 as FreeBMD states then the oldest daughter (Sarah Ann) was born out of wedlock as she was 9 in 1871

See post #7

[blacklace]

I'm having a few difficulties trying to post an attachment, but there is a newspaper article in the Fife Herald 2 Nov 1871:

BIGAMY - At Rochdale Police Court, Joseph Smith, a young man, was charged with Bigamy. Ann Richings, of Cheltenham, stated that in 1866 she was present when the prisoner was married to Mary Ann Ritchings and, some months after, he deserted her. She had only one child by him. Ann Graham next stated that the prisoner met her at Warrington and, in March 1869, he was married to her at the old Parish Church at Warrington. He lived with her until she had pledged all her clothes and spent all her money, and then he deserted her. Detective Sergeant Marshall gave evidence as to the prisoner having been given into custody at Cheltenham, where he had returned to his first wife. The prisoner had nothing to say in answer to the charge, and the magistrates committed him to the assizes for trial.

Bloody hell...

[Lesley Robertson]

Nice one, Jomot! Many thanks. The papers were on my todo list for when I had a bit more free time!

On 9 December 1871 he was sentenced to 12 months imprisonment at the Manchester Assizes. Manchester Times 9 Dec. No other detail given.