William Creed b 1846-1848 Cirencester?

[Sandyhall]

1861 census

Martha Harvey 35 Widow
William Creed Harvey 16
Frances Mary Harvey 10
Emily Harvey 8
Thomas Edwd Harvey 5

In the house above is Ann and Joseph Creed

Marriages Mar 1850
Creed Martha Cirencester 11 279
HARVEY Thomas Cirencester 11 279

I think Martha Creed has son William Creed before she married Thomas Harvey.
There is a 6 Year gap befor the next child is born.

William Creed then went back to his real name and First marriage is to Ann Curtis 27 Mar 1870 • Cirencester, Gloucestershire, England

At the moment I have children 5 Children 2 of which have the name Harvey as a second name
William Harvey Creed MMN Curtis

Second marriage is to Louisa Smith in 1895 and I have 6 children at the moment MMN Smith

[Pam Downes]

I checked out the MMN on some of the children

Florence Ellen Creed 1882 Dec 1/4 • Cheltenham, Gloucestershire mmn Smith.

Charles Henry Creed 1909 June 1/4 • Cheltenham, Gloucestershire mmn Smith

You've got your wires a bit crossed there, Sandy.

Mother's maiden name for that birth registration is Stevens.
It's also way before William and Louisa married.

Pam

[Pam Downes]

Seems there are a few more eligible William Creeds than at first seemed possible, so I think we need to go back and sift through all the evidence again.

Definitely known:
1911 census
53 Queen Street, Cheltenham, Census reference RG14/15537 SN205
William Creed, 63,famr labourer, born Cirencster
Louisa. wife, 47
William Ernest, 16,
Alice, 10
Nellie, 8
Ethel, 4
Charles, 2
Louisa and all children born Cheltenham

William and Louisa said to have been married 16 years (which we know is not true), and have had nine children, four of whom have died.

Marriage certificate (from PR) for William and Louisa available on Ancestry.
Married 22 March 1897 (not 1899 as stated by OP in first post) at Cheltenham St Mary.
William was a widower, 48, labourer. No father's name or occupation given.
Louisa was 30, spinster, no occupation given, Her father Joseph Smith (deceased), lathe render(er).
Both made their mark. Witnesses Florence M Millard and (illegible) Millard.

1901 census
8 Leighton Row, Cheltenham (same address as marriage certificate)
Census reference: RG13/2466 folio 36 page 18
William, 55
Louisa, wife, 34
Florence, 12
William, 6
All said to have been born Cheltenham

There is no birth registration for a William Ernest Creed in Cheltenham registration district 1893-1897, but there is one for a William Ernest Smith, March quarter 1895, no mother's maiden name given indicating a possible illegitimate birth.

Ditto regarding Florence Creed, but with a Florence Annie Smith birth registration Cheltenham registration district March quarter 1889. Again no mother's maiden name.

There's also a Frederick John Smith, birth registered December quarter 1896, again no mother's maiden name. With a death registration for a Frederick John Creed, aged 3, December quarter 1900.

Children born in Cheltenham registration district, surname Creed, mother's maiden name Smith.
Lilian May, June quarter 1899 - died September quarter 1900
Alice Louisa, June quarter 1901
Mary Nellie, June quarter 1903
George Victor, March quarter 1905 - died September quarter 1906
Ethel May, June quarter 1906
Charles Henry, June quarter 1909

So I've found a likely nine children, but only positively deaths for three of them.

Going back to the 1891 census things get murkier.

Living in Cheltenham, there's a widowed William Creed, aged 46, furniture dealer, living with his widowed mother Ann, aged 79, and both born Painswick. RG12/2047 folio 138 page 31.

Also living in Cheltenham is William Creed, also a widower, aged 44,general labourer, with children William 19, Florence 9, and Alice 4. All said to have been born Cheltenham. Census reference RG12/2047 folio 10 page 14.

Taking back William and that family to 1881, we find (living at the same address as in 1891)
William, 40, general labourer, Elizabeth,31, laundress, and children William 9, and Earnest (sic) 1.

Birth registration of children. All in Cheltenham registration district. All mother's maiden name Stevens.
William Charles - June quarter 1872
Ernest - December quarter 1879
Florence Ellen - December quarter 1882
Alice Amelia - June quarter 1886

That all fits with post #18

I haven't worked this through so it may be a complete red herring, but as William was a widower I looked for deaths of a female prior to his marriage to Louisa and found a death in Q1 1891 in Cheltenham of an Isabel Creed aged 43.

I think she was actually Maria Isabella Stephens, and in November 1871 there is a marriage in Cheltenham to William Creed, bachelor, labourer, aged 32 (c1839). William's father is again blank.

In 1881 he says he is 40 (1841) but by 1891 he is only 44 (1847)

The age is obviously all over but possibly fits with the William Creed aged 9 in the Cirencester workhouse in 1851.

However,because there is no 'overlap' definite family members from 1891 to 1901 I am not yet convinced that this is Mark's 'William'.
A lot more work has to be done.

The other William in 1891 who's living with his widowed mother Ann in 1881 is in Cheltanham, Census reference RG11/2571 folio 90 page 4
William. widower, 35, grocer, Stroud
William, 12, Cheltenham
Albert, 10, Cheltenham
Mary A, 9, Cheltenham
Louisa, sister, 26, Cheltenham
William, father, 70, Stroud
Ann, mother, 66, Gloucestershire

Mother's maiden name of children matches a marriage of a William Creed to an ELizabeth Budgen September quarter 1867 Cheltenham registration district.

Got to leave it there for the moment, as there is some serious housework which has to be done.

Pam

[Sandyhall]

We are all summarizing we have the right one i.e. William Creed. Untill we have a birth certificate. Who knows we all may be chasing rainbows.

I,m having a rest today had a very messey day yesterday with Zachary and going out to see my new born Great Grandaughter.

See you all later

[Jomot1]

Going back to the 1891 census things get murkier.

Living in Cheltenham, there's a widowed William Creed, aged 46, furniture dealer, living with his widowed mother Ann, aged 79, and both born Painswick. RG12/2047 folio 138 page 31.

Also living in Cheltenham is William Creed, also a widower, aged 44,general labourer, with children William 19, Florence 9, and Alice 4. All said to have been born Cheltenham. Census reference RG12/2047 folio 10 page 14.

Taking back William and that family to 1881, we find (living at the same address as in 1891)
William, 40, general labourer, Elizabeth,31, laundress, and children William 9, and Earnest (sic) 1.

Birth registration of children. All in Cheltenham registration district. All mother's maiden name Stevens.
William Charles - June quarter 1872
Ernest - December quarter 1879
Florence Ellen - December quarter 1882
Alice Amelia - June quarter 1886

That all fits with post #18

However,because there is no 'overlap' definite family members from 1891 to 1901 I am not yet convinced that this is Mark's 'William'.
A lot more work has to be done.

Pam

According to a tree on Ancestry, Florence Ellen and Alice Amelia went to Canada in 1896 as British Home Children, and there is a burial for Ernest (Ernest Arthur) s/o William & Isabel in 1886.

William Charles Creed joined the army in Dec 1891/Jan 1892.

[almach]

Pam posted at #23

Ditto regarding Florence Creed, but with a Florence Annie Smith birth registration Cheltenham registration district March quarter 1889. Again no mother's maiden name.

There is this marriage. St Peter's Parish Church Cheltenham, Nov 7th 1908.
George Stubbs 26 bachelor, gardener, 430 Worcester St, father George Stubbs, gardener
Florence Annie Smith, 21, spinster, 50 Queen St, father William Smith, labourer.

1911, 55 Queen Street, Cheltenham. RG14; Piece: 15537; SN: 207 All born Cheltenham
George Stubbs 29. labourer market gardener
Florence Annie Stubbs 23, married 3yrs,
Frederick George Stubbs 2

55 Queen St is next door to George and Louisa Creed's address in 1911 who were at number 53.

George Stubbs WW1 Army service records are on Ancestry, they name two children born after the 1911 census was taken: Florence Annie 13th April 1912; Lilian May 22nd March or May(unclear) 1914 both said to be born at 27, Queen St. Cheltenham.
George died in the Frensham Hill Military Hospital 28th Oct 1918 of acute bronchitis and cardiac failure.

[Jomot1]

William Charles Creed joined the army in Dec 1891/Jan 1892.

He married Ellen Amelia Turner at Cheltenham Register Office in 1899, re-enlisted in 1915 and died in 1918. His findagrave record says Ellen was living at 15 Queen Street.

Might be worth ordering his marriage certificate to see if his address or one of the witnesses connects him to William & Louisa.

[Dundee10]

I think I've figured it out...

The 1861 census has a William Creed (aged 11) living with an Alexander Creed and Mary Creed in Kempsford (which isn't a million miles from Cirencester.

This William married Marianne DOBSON in 1872, Preshute, Wiltshire. His father is named as Alexander and census records show him as born in Duffield/Dunfield and Fairford which are in the Kempsford parish.

[Jomot1]

I'm just throwing this in as a possibility in case the William Creed in the Cirencester Workhouse in 1851 aged 9 & born Ampney St Peter is the correct one.

22 Aug 1844
Removed after an examination from Wroughton to Ampney St Peter, Glos. Ann CREED spinster dau Susanna COLLETT nee CREED widow of Poole & bastard childr: William 2, girl 2 weeks both born Wroughton.

Baptism 2 Oct 1842 Wroughton, Wiltshire
William Gray Creed s/o Ann Creed of Wroughton, Singlewoman

GRAY, WILLIAM mmn CREED GRO Ref: 1842 J Quarter in SWINDON Volume 8 Page 359
GRAY, ANN mmn CREED GRO Ref: 1844 S Quarter in SWINDON Volume 08 Page 323

Burial at Cirencester 14 July 1846 Ann Creed aged 2 of the Union Workhouse, Ampney St Peter

[Jomot1]

And following on from the above, in 1881 Susan Collett is in Lambeth with her married daughter Ann Wheeler and her husband William Wheeler. Going back through the census, in 1861 they are in Lambeth with a 13 year old son Richard Wheeler, born Berkshire:
WHEELER, RICHARD mmn CREED GRO Ref: 1848 J Quarter in WANTAGE Volume 6 Page 273

There is no trace of a marriage between Ann Creed & William Wheeler. In 1851 Ann & 2 year old Richard are in Wantage, Berkshire There is no sign of her son William Gray/Creed, so it seems highly likely that he is the child in the Cirencester workhouse.

In 1861 he is possibly the 17 year old groom in the parish of Rendcombe (Cirencester RD)