William Creed b 1846-1848 Cirencester?

[blacklace]

Hi guys, apologies I have another one.

I'm struggling to find my great grandfather history.

He was born William Creed in Cirencester (according to banns) between 1846-1849

He was married twice, first to Ann Creed (b 1849?)who passed away (unknown date)

Then to Louisa Smith (my Great Grandmother) in 1899.

Both Banns say that he didn't know who his father or what his occupation was.

The only serious link I have is that his father was possibly John Creed born in 1810 (wife Mary Sangar, 1817). But they moved (including William) to Australia in 1861. but there is no record of William coming back!

Any help you could provide would be awesome.

Thanks

Mark

[emeltee]

Looks like you have a choice

William Creed Mar 1846 Cirencester 11 273 mmn Sanger

William Creed Dec 1849 Cirencester 11 249 mmn Willis

Emeltee

[Sandyhall]

Name: William Creed
Gender: Male
Marriage Age: 25
Event Type: Marriage
Birth Year: abt 1845
Marriage Date: 27 Mar 1870
Marriage Place: Cirencester, Gloucestershire, England
Spouse: Ann Curtis

Volume: 6a
Page: 508

[blacklace]

This is the census from 1911 showing that he was living with my Great Grandmother

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWM9-BYH

Which makes me think that he was born in 1949 and his mothers name was willis (where are you getting his mmn from btw??)

This leads me to think Ann Curtis wasn't his first wife, so who was?? There wasn't another wedding with his name/birthdate, and he said he was a widower on the banns for Louisa.

I might be missing something obvious

[Pam Downes]

I'm going to be very nit-picky here, but it's important that you learn correct definitions, and exactly what documents do/don't tell you.

I'm struggling to find my great grandfather history.
He was born William Creed in Cirencester (according to banns) between 1846-1849

Banns do not tell you where someone was born. I don't think they usually tell you anyone's age either. All they tell you are the name of the prospective bride and groom and the parish they were living in at the time the banns were published. Which was usually in the three weeks before the marriage.

He was married twice, first to Ann Creed (b 1849?)who passed away (unknown date)

It's not unknown but it not the norm for the bride to have the same surname before her marriage as she does afterwards, so Creed is unlikely to have been her maiden name. I am quite prepared to accept Creed as her maiden name if you can say that William and Ann had child x whose mother's maiden name was Creed. But until then - no chance.

Then to Louisa Smith (my Great Grandmother) in 1899.
Both Banns say that he didn't know who his father or what his occupation was.

You are correct in saying the banns don't give that information. They never do.

The only serious link I have is that his father was possibly John Creed born in 1810 (wife Mary Sangar, 1817). But they moved (including William) to Australia in 1861. but there is no record of William coming back!

Any help you could provide would be awesome.

Thanks
Mark

So what documentation regarding either or both of these marriages?
Do you have the marriage certificates?
These will say where the marriage took place, when, whether the bride and groom were bachelor, spinster, widowed or divorced. There's space for addresses, occupations, and names and occupations of their fathers.
And underneath those boxes space for signatures of the bride and groom, witnesses, and the officiating minister/Registrar.

If you have those documents, what are the details?

Have you found William and Ann, and then William and Louisa in the censues?
Where are they living? What are their ages in the census, and who are their children?
Do you have the census references (they look something like RG11/1224 folio 10 page 15).

The more correct information you give us, the more we can accurately help, without saying 'there's this possibility. Or it could be that one'.

Pam

[Pam Downes]

This is the census from 1911 showing that he was living with my Great Grandmother

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWM9-BYH

Which makes me think that he was born in 1949 and his mothers name was willis (where are you getting his mmn from btw??)

This leads me to think Ann Curtis wasn't his first wife, so who was?? There wasn't another wedding with his name/birthdate, and he said he was a widower on the banns for Louisa.

I might be missing something obvious

A word of warning first of all.
Re the 1911 census. Transcriptions and indexes are very useful, but you should always refer to the original document.
I had problems with a great-grandfather and his father in the 1881 census. According to the transcription, the father wasn't old enough to be the father, if you know what I mean. However, when I learnt that you needed to always look at the original, I found that the age was 59, not 39 as indexed, so he was old enough to be the father.

Also, never rely on one census for a person's age and birthplace. To say they can be subject to variation is sometimes an understatement.

Mother's maiden names can be found in the GRO Historical births index.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

Ages at death 1837-1866, missing from the original GRO Index, can be found in the Historical deaths index.

Pam

[blacklace]

A word of warning first of all.
Re the 1911 census. Transcriptions and indexes are very useful, but you should always refer to the original document.
I had problems with a great-grandfather and his father in the 1881 census. According to the transcription, the father wasn't old enough to be the father, if you know what I mean. However, when I learnt that you needed to always look at the original, I found that the age was 59, not 39 as indexed, so he was old enough to be the father.

Also, never rely on one census for a person's age and birthplace. To say they can be subject to variation is sometimes an understatement.

Mother's maiden names can be found in the GRO Historical births index.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

Ages at death 1837-1866, missing from the original GRO Index, can be found in the Historical deaths index.

Pam

I've seen the original, it's accurate.

[blacklace]

I'm going to be very nit-picky here, but it's important that you learn correct definitions, and exactly what documents do/don't tell you.


Banns do not tell you where someone was born. I don't think they usually tell you anyone's age either. All they tell you are the name of the prospective bride and groom and the parish they were living in at the time the banns were published. Which was usually in the three weeks before the marriage.



It's not unknown but it not the norm for the bride to have the same surname before her marriage as she does afterwards, so Creed is unlikely to have been her maiden name. I am quite prepared to accept Creed as her maiden name if you can say that William and Ann had child x whose mother's maiden name was Creed. But until then - no chance.



You are correct in saying the banns don't give that information. They never do.



So what documentation regarding either or both of these marriages?
Do you have the marriage certificates?
These will say where the marriage took place, when, whether the bride and groom were bachelor, spinster, widowed or divorced. There's space for addresses, occupations, and names and occupations of their fathers.
And underneath those boxes space for signatures of the bride and groom, witnesses, and the officiating minister/Registrar.

If you have those documents, what are the details?

Have you found William and Ann, and then William and Louisa in the censues?
Where are they living? What are their ages in the census, and who are their children?
Do you have the census references (they look something like RG11/1224 folio 10 page 15).

The more correct information you give us, the more we can accurately help, without saying 'there's this possibility. Or it could be that one'.

Pam

Sorry, this was what I reading it from. https://www.
ancestry.co.uk/interactive/5156/41511_636897_2029-00154?pid=149226&backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/162297148/person/282115779836/gallery&usePUB=true&_phsrc=caF4474&usePUBJs=true (not sure the link will work, hopefully it will)

I've ruled out Ann as the dates now don't match up

[Sandyhall]

Name: Louisa Smith
[Louisa Row]
Gender: Female
Marriage Age: 30
Event Type: Marriage
Birth Year: abt 1867
Marriage Date: 22 Mar 1897
Marriage Place: Cheltenham, St Mary, Gloucestershire, England
Parish as it Appears: Cheltenham
Father: Leighton Row
Spouse: William Creed

[blacklace]

Name: Louisa Smith
[Louisa Row]
Gender: Female
Marriage Age: 30
Event Type: Marriage
Birth Year: abt 1867
Marriage Date: 22 Mar 1897
Marriage Place: Cheltenham, St Mary, Gloucestershire, England
Parish as it Appears: Cheltenham
Father: Leighton Row
Spouse: William Creed

Leighton Row was the street they lived on, her fathers name was Joseph Smith