Looking for my GGGrandmother in Bolton

[almach]

Minnie Gee and Walter Gee, Port of Departure: Montréal, Québec, Canada
Arrival Date: 9 Jun 1934, Port of Arrival: Glasgow, Scotland
Ship Name: Athenia
Address: 93, Newgate, Upholland Moor, Wigan.

[almach]

Annie Sumner Age 38, Born Up Holland, England
Marriage 14 Aug 1926, Middlesex, Ontario, Canada
Father Fredrick Sumner Mother Jane Mayor
Spouse James Thompson, widower, age 51, born Cheshire England. Parents Solomon Thompson and Margaret Bibby

[christanel]

It's worth mentioning that that Frederick Sumner is indexed on FreeBMD as Frederick SUMMER and on the GRO as Frederick SUMNER, Dec qrt Bury.

In 1891 Frederick is described as born Bury 1864, RG12; Piece: 3066; Folio: 27; Page: 13. Though on the 1901 and 1911 he's born Upholland.

The original image of the birth Summer 1864 definitely says Summer. Bah! but I am still of the opinion the certificate needs to be bought.

1871 born Bolton in the workhouse Farnworth
1881 born Bolton but living in Upholland with his uncle. So if we have the correct Frederick he did live in Upholland at one point.
Christina

[christanel]

I don’t know when he died. He, Jane, Minnie and Annie all came to Canada in 1925-ish, stayed for a few years, had some fallout and went back to England.
Thanks.

There is a death of a Frederick Sumner age 79 Dec 1/4 1943 registration district Ince vol 8c page 150. Ince reg dist. includes Upholland.
Christina

[loobylou]

There is a death of a Frederick Sumner age 79 Dec 1/4 1943 registration district Ince vol 8c page 150. Ince reg dist. includes Upholland.
Christina

You beat me to it Christina.
I looked at the marriage for the uncle on 1881 census. He married Margaret Birchall and his father was John. Elizabeth's father was William so does this discount him?

[christanel]

You beat me to it Christina.
I looked at the marriage for the uncle on 1881 census. He married Margaret Birchall and his father was John. Elizabeth's father was William so does this discount him?

Yes I saw that marriage and Frederick put his father as John on his marriage certificate so he may have been using his grandfather's name.
I have lost the plot with Elizabeth. How do we know her father was William? And we need to see the 1864 birth certificate because Frederick's mother may not be an Elizabeth at all as that was the name on the birth cert of a Frederick born Sept 1/4 1863 but we have since discovered he died age 3 months Sept 1/4 1863.
Christina

[loobylou]

Yes I saw that marriage and Frederick put his father as John on his marriage certificate so he may have been using his grandfather's name.
I have lost the plot with Elizabeth. How do we know her father was William? And we need to see the 1864 birth certificate because Frederick's mother may not be an Elizabeth at all as that was the name on the birth cert of a Frederick born Sept 1/4 1863 but we have since discovered he died age 3 months Sept 1/4 1863.
Christina

I completely agree. Without the 1864 birth details we've no real evidence. This has certainly generated a lot of interest so hopefully we'll get an answer soon.

[arthurk]

A little bit of corroboration from the LancashireBMD site:

Frederic Sumner born 1863, Bolton registration district, Eastern Bolton sub-district
Frederic Sumner died 1863, Bolton registration district, Horwich sub-district (age 0)
Frederick Sumner born 1864, Bury registration district, Bury South sub-district

Note that all surnames are spelled SUMNER - these are produced from local register office records, so haven't been through as many transcription/copying processes as the GRO records.

Note too the consistent spelling of the 1863 Frederic.

I'm not very familiar with that area, but the sub-districts might be of some help in connecting Frederick with a birthplace given on a census.

[JReiblich]

The original image of the birth Summer 1864 definitely says Summer. Bah! but I am still of the opinion the certificate needs to be bought.

1871 born Bolton in the workhouse Farnworth
1881 born Bolton but living in Upholland with his uncle. So if we have the correct Frederick he did live in Upholland at one point.
Christina

This lead is promising. I know my grandparents (John and Margaret Sumner) lived in Upholland at one point.
I will buy that certificate and see if it produces fruit. Thank you.

[JReiblich]

Yes I saw that marriage and Frederick put his father as John on his marriage certificate so he may have been using his grandfather's name.
I have lost the plot with Elizabeth. How do we know her father was William? And we need to see the 1864 birth certificate because Frederick's mother may not be an Elizabeth at all as that was the name on the birth cert of a Frederick born Sept 1/4 1864 but we have since discovered he died age 3 months Sept 1/4 1864.
Christina

If I’ve got the wrong birth certificate, Elizabeth may not be his mother’s name at all.
Remember, the point I am stuck at is before the 1871 census.
I can connect all the names and birthdates after that point to relatives.
The 1861 census may just have coincidental names and near birthdates (to James the uncle at least) the Frederic versus Frederick spelling also makes me think I must have the wrong birth certificate.
Thanks again.