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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by christanel View Post
    The Frederic Sumner born in 1863, birth registered Sept 1/4 1863, died in the Sept 1/4 1863. His death is on the GRO index and FreeBMD and his burial is on the LancsOPC, He can't be your great grandfather.
    To really be sure of this you could purchase the death certificate to see the details.
    Frederick Sumner Sept 1/4 registration district Bolton vol 8c page 166 age 0. On the burial it gives his age as 3 months.

    The census records do indicate a c1864 birth as I stated previously.
    On his marriage record Frederick gives his father's name as John but he was illegitimate and as many experienced researchers will tell you illegitimate children were wont to make up names of fathers to save face. My own illegitimate great grandfather gave his father's name as George with the occupation 'Gentleman!"
    Yeah right! He was one of 4 illegitimate children to my great grandmother.
    The Frederick Sumner birth registered in 1864 was also illegitimate but is very likely your great grandfather. You do need to consider very seriously the 1864 birth registration. It could be that it is the same birth mother and she named her second illegitimate baby after her first son but you do need to know otherwise you could spend many hours and a lot of money in following the wrong line.
    Christina
    I think we have a winner.

  2. #52
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    You've said that you're sure your Frederick is the one in the 1881 census with his uncle James in Upholland - RG11/3782 fo38 p16 (continues on fo39 p17).

    This James appears to have married Margaret Birchall in Upholland in 1868, and was son of John. Other evidence quoted above indicates that he was son of John and Ellen, and was baptised 28 Jun 1840 in Rivington. I've been chasing James back through the censuses to see if there are any clues which might reveal who Frederick's mother was.

    1871 - in household of his widowed mother-in-law Elizabeth Birchall in Upholland (RG10/3897 fo36 p13; folio & page number are blurred/obscured so might be wrong, but piece number is definitely correct)
    1861 - with his uncle Thomas Sumner in Blackrod (RG9/2769 fo28 p16)
    1851 - with his widowed mother Ellen in Rivington (HO107/2262 fo533 p12)
    1841 - with John & Ellen in Rivington (HO107/537/15 fo4 p2)

    John and Ellen's children as shown in 1841 and 1851, with approximate year of birth, are:
    Margaret 1832-3
    Ann 1834-5
    Elizabeth 1835-6
    John 1837-8 (GRO: Mar qtr 1838)
    James 1840 (GRO: Mar qtr 1840)
    Stephen 1842-3 (GRO: Jun qtr 1842)
    Emanuel 1843-4 (GRO: Mar qtr 1844)

    The GRO index gives the mother's maiden name as Yates; there's a Laurence Yates as a visitor in the household in 1851.

    Anyway, if this James is definitely Frederick's uncle, then Frederick is likely to be son of one of those children.

  3. #53
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    As my post on No8


    Marriage: 24 Feb 1868 St Thomas the Martyr, Upholland, Lancashire, England
    James Sumner - (X), 25, Collier, Bachelor, Up Holland
    Margaret Birchall - 19, Spinster, Up Holland
    Groom's Father: John Sumner, Deceased
    Bride's Father: James Birchall, Deceased
    Witness: William Tyrer; Thomas Rigby
    Married by banns by: Charles Bisset, Incumbent
    Register: Marriages 1863 - 1882, Page 68, Entry 136
    Source: LDS Film 1657546

    Marj

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    Thanks Marj - I was aware that you'd posted that, but I wrote "appears to have" because I generally prefer to get all the loose ends tied up before committing myself to saying something was definitely the case.

    Another marriage which "appears to be" relevant:

    20 Oct 1834 at Bolton-le-Moors
    John Sumner b otp & Ellen Yates (X) sp otp, by banns
    Witnesses: James Yates, James Liptrot (who witnessed others so may be the clerk)

    Image at FamilySearch - film no. 007568530, image no. 508

    I think I'll have a pause now to wait for the OP's response to these latest findings.

  5. #55

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    I’ve ordered the proper birth certificate and received the electronic copy. Again the mother is listed as Elizabeth Sumner. So it must be the Elizabeth born 1835. The rest of those relatives seem to match what I do know about them. And Birchall was a name I remember from my childhood. Some ended up in London Canada as well. I’m still curious why Frederick would list his father’s name (on marriage certificate) as John Sumner, which would be his mother’s father. Hmmmmmmm...

  6. #56
    Super Moderator christanel's Avatar
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    Frederick may have given his grandfather's name as his father to save face with his bride's family or with the vicar or just generally not wanting it known he was illegitimate. It could also be that he genuinely believed his grandfather was his father. That happened also.
    As I said in a previous post. my great grandfather was one of 4 illegitimate children to my gggrandmother and he knew it but made up the name George and occupation 'Gentleman' for his father on his marriage certificate.
    Christina
    Sometimes paranoia is just having all the facts.
    William Burroughs

  7. #57

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    �� thanks, you’ve been very helpful.

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