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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by loobylou View Post
    In #1 you say Frederic was born in Prestwich asylum yet in #11 he's registered in East Bolton. Those 2 bits of info don't match. I can't find a burial for Elizabeth on Manchester Burials. You'll find loads of info/images about the asylum on the Manchester City Council website. Well worth a look.
    No. I didnít say Frederick was born in the Asylum. That was my question. Iím trying to find out what happened to Frederickís mother Elizabeth.

    Iíve never been there, so I do not know the lay of land. That is why Iím searching here.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by JReiblich View Post
    No. I didnít say Frederick was born in the Asylum....
    But that's what loobylou and I (and others?) understood from what you wrote (my emphasis):

    Quote Originally Posted by JReiblich View Post
    Looking for my great great grandmother born about 1853 Bolton UK. I think she may have given birth to my great grandfather in Prestwich Mental Asylum.
    You haven't given us Frederick's exact date of birth, but I don't think an Elizabeth who'd been admitted to the Prestwich asylum a few days earlier would have been allowed out to give birth in Bolton, unless she'd been properly discharged.

    Besides which, we seem to have found three Elizabeth Sumners: the one in the asylum born c1819 (if she's the one who died in 1867); the daughter of John and Ellen born c1836; and the one you originally mentioned born c1853.

    Because of the ages, and because she had a brother James, I suspect the middle one is most likely to be yours, so it might be a good idea to focus mainly on her and leave the others for now.

  3. #23
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    One further complication:

    21 Sep 1863 - Frederick Sumner buried in Horwich (age 3 months, of Horwich)

    You'll need to tread carefully to distinguish him from yours, who obviously lived longer than that.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by arthurk View Post
    One further complication:

    21 Sep 1863 - Frederick Sumner buried in Horwich (age 3 months, of Horwich)

    You'll need to tread carefully to distinguish him from yours, who obviously lived longer than that.
    On FreeBMD all first 3 quarters there is only one birth of a Fred* (has his name Frederic) Summner and that is in the Sept 1/4
    The GRO index does not record a mother's maiden name which indicates illegitimacy. I can't see a baptismfor this one on LancsOPC only the burial record arthurk found.
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  5. #25
    Super Moderator christanel's Avatar
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    I am getting confused
    My great grandfathers name was Frederick Sumner DOB 23/6/1863 no father listed on birth certificate
    As I said in my previous post there is only one birth of a Frederick Sum*er in the whole of Lancashire in 1863 (on FreeBMD) and he appears to have died then was buried on 21 Sept 1863.

    The birth certificate you have was ordered using the vol number 8c page 292 registration district Bolton?

    I think we may have to start searching from your great grandfather's marriage details to be sure we are on the right track. Who did he marry, when, where? Any fathers' names and occupations on the certificate? Addresses?

    Christina
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  6. #26
    Super Moderator christanel's Avatar
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    There is a Frederick Sumner birth registered in Bury Dec 1/4 1864 vol 8c page 875. No mother's maiden name.

    Ah! he appears to be the one who is in the Farnworth workhouse in 1871 age 7 as per your post #5. So do you have the wrong birth certificate? The censuses do indicate a birth year c1864. Others will correct me if my reasoning is off the wall, please?
    Christina
    Sometimes paranoia is just having all the facts.
    William Burroughs

  7. #27

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    Is this your gt grandparent's marriage?

    4 Feb 1884, Parish of Upholland.
    Frederick Sumner age 20, bachelor, collier, Upholland Moor, father John Sumner collier.
    Jane Mayor, 20, spinster, domestic servant, Upholland Moor, father Hugh Mayor plate layer
    Witnesses: Thomas Mayor, Mary Mayor
    Frederick and Jane both signed.
    Alma

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by arthurk View Post
    But that's what loobylou and I (and others?) understood from what you wrote (my emphasis):
    You haven't given us Frederick's exact date of birth,

    but I don't think an Elizabeth who'd been admitted to the Prestwich asylum a few days earlier would have been allowed out to give birth in Bolton, unless she'd been properly discharged.

    Besides which, we seem to have found three Elizabeth Sumners: the one in the asylum born c1819 (if she's the one who died in 1867); the daughter of John and Ellen born c1836; and the one you originally mentioned born c1853.
    Because of the ages, and because she had a brother James, I suspect the middle one is most likely to be yours, so it might be a good idea to focus mainly on her and leave the others for now.
    Iím sorry you misunderstood my original post, I am here to find out if Frederick Sumner was born to the Elizabeth Sumner in the asylum.

    I did give Fredericks exact DOB in previous post (JUNE 23, 1863)and I have no reason to believe the birth certificate I received was for the wrong Frederick Sumner.

    I realize you are trying to be helpful, but Iíve been researching this for several years. Iíve definitely eliminated the second Elizabeth (daughter of John and Ellen)
    James from the original census 1861 and the uncle James in the 1881 census match in age.
    The Frederick in the 1881 census is DEFINITELY my great grandfather. Ive followed all the information from there to my mother, marriage, children, emigration to Canada etc.

    Iíd like to know how you are sure the Elizabeth Sumner in the Asylum was born c1819. What methodology did you use to decide? Iíd like to see the records.

    I realize 11 years of age is very young to give birth, but certainly not impossible.

  9. #29

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    Yes, that is my great grandfather’s marriage.

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by almach View Post
    Is this your gt grandparent's marriage?

    4 Feb 1884, Parish of Upholland.
    Frederick Sumner age 20, bachelor, collier, Upholland Moor, father John Sumner collier.
    Jane Mayor, 20, spinster, domestic servant, Upholland Moor, father Hugh Mayor plate layer
    Witnesses: Thomas Mayor, Mary Mayor
    Frederick and Jane both signed.
    Yes, that is my great grandfather’s marriage. He listed his father as John Sumner, but I’ve run that lead down every rabbit hole I’ve come across (before I sent for his birth certificate) and it seems to be made up.

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