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  1. #1

    Default MICHAEL GOLDSMID -PHOEBE (UNKNOWN LAST NAME)

    This new thread should be read in conjunction with earlier threads on the Goldsmid and related lines which I have posted on -see in particular Albert Aaron Goldsmid 21.06.2008;Abraham Jacob Jones-Sophia Goldsmid 1.07.2017;Henry Goldsmid and Sarah Ward Ogle line 27.10.2011; Lionel Campbell Goldsmid abt 1820-1913 30.10.2011
    There are other relevant threads but the above provide an overview of the main relationships between families including the Hart/Crawcour/Jacobs.
    This thread is the initial start of more detailed research required to establish other relationships including possible further marriages following the death of a partner.

    As a start,my interest is in Michael Goldsmid the father of Joseph Goldsmid who married Celia Jacobs in 1836 and also whether Michael was married twice. Similarly,I am researching whether or not Joseph also married twice.

    The main original sources of data are taken from Synagogue Scribes and Cemetery Scribes records, Census records and from Doreen Berger and her two volumes The Jewish Victorian. Genealogical information from the Jewish Newspapers 1861-70;71-80 Published 1999, 2004 Robert Boyd.

    I also have access to the Jewish Chronicle Archives 1841-present and will consult these records.

    Synagogue Scribes have the Burial record for Michael Goldsmid in 1833-HAMBURSYN 168
    Michael GOLDSMID Hebrew name Yechiel R Died Weds 10 April 1833 Rosemary Lane father's Hebrew name Meshulam Ha Levi

    Synagogue Scribes refer to a possible unnamed wife of Michel who died in 11 April 1804- see BSHAMBUR 177 wife of
    Yechiel b Meshullam 6th Row.
    They also have added the note that the Michael was the father of Joseph Goldsmid HSM 247 and possibly Sophia Goldsmid Cemetery Scribes ID 11121 and Jane Goldsmid GSM 258/18

    Doreen Berger in her 1861-70 volume has-under JOSEPH GOLDSMID Mr and Mrs J C COHEN and brothers with Joseph Goldsmid of 56a Houndsditch thanks for condolences during their week of mourning Dec 18 1861 with links to the death of Phoebe Goldsmid in 1861..Mrs P Goldsmid and her sister Mrs E COHEN who died at her residence 40 Mansell Street on Friday 6.12.186. At the same address on Tuesday 10.12.1861, her sister Mrs P GOLDSMID (widow of MICHAEL GOLDSMID)aged 98 years.

    Berger has recorded Joseph Goldsmid son of Phoebe Goldsmid,Julia Goldsmid granddaughter,Mrs E COHEN sister, COLEMAN COHEN Brother in law.

    Joseph Goldsmid son of Michael Goldsmid died in 1865-23.12.1865 at his residence 57 Cornwall Road Bayswater aged 53 years...Julia Goldsmid daughter,Michael Goldsmid father, P Goldsmid mother,Abraham Abrahams son in law.

    I will post further.
    Phillip
    Phillip-Jewish,British Ancestry

    "The only true dead are those who have been forgotten"

  2. #2

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    The following data includes reference to the GRO Death Certificate for Phoebe Goldsmid as well as the 1861 Census.
    It is proving difficult on Ancestry.Co to trace Phoebe Goldsmid pre 1861 using a wide range of variations of names on the site. Any help would be appreciated.

    Death Certificate
    10 December 1861
    40 Mansell Street Whitechapel-PHOEBE GOLDSMID 99 widow of MICHAEL GOLDSMID-Grocer-Cause of Death Natural Decay. Informant ABRAHAM J JONES Present at Death 40 Newington Crescent Surrey?

    1861 Census (Crown Copyright TNA)RG9 273 66 34
    40 Mansell Street Whitechapel Goodmans Fields
    SARAH COHEN H widow 84 Lady b Norfolk Norwich
    E C COHEN son 48 Independent Blind b Norfolk Norwich
    P GOLDSMID sister 97 Lady b Norfolk Norwich
    +1 nurse +1 servant

    In #1 of this thread I referred to Joseph Goldsmid possibly marrying twice. Synagogue Scribes have two marriage records- HSM 175 Joseph GOLDSMID May 1 1831 Rosemary Lane Minories father's Hebrew name MICHAEL HA LEVI (The Learned Mr)- FANNY MORDECAI

    HSM 247
    Joseph GOLDSMID August 17 1836 Mitre Square Aldgate-father's Hebrew name Yechiel Ha Levi (The Learned Mr k/a Michael) =CELIA JACOBS father's Hebrew name Mr Aharon

    The similarities between the two father's Hebrew names for Joseph Goldsmid raises the question regarding whether or not Joseph was married twice.

    I will post further.

    Phillip
    Phillip-Jewish,British Ancestry

    "The only true dead are those who have been forgotten"

  3. #3

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    The following data is taken from JewishGen UK Data base and relates to both Michael Goldsmid and his son Joseph Goldsmid:
    Jewish Traders/Businesses in London 1769-1839
    Michael Goldsmid Grocer 19 Rosemary Lane Holden 1799
    London Jews (pre 1850)
    Michael Goldsmid Grocer and dir 119 Rosemary Lane Kent 1814
    Jewish Surnames in London Registered Insurance Policies
    Michael Goldsmid Grocer 06.07.1802

    The 1851 Anglo Jewry Database has records on Joseph Goldsmid ID 27668 which includes reference to his 2 Marriages as per previous posts in this thread. The records include the names of his children based on the 1851 census but also earlier dates. His sister Sophia JONES nee Goldsmid is ID 7715 and Michael Joseph Goldsmid is ID 27672.

    I will post further.
    Phillip
    Phillip-Jewish,British Ancestry

    "The only true dead are those who have been forgotten"

  4. #4

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    This information is taken from JewishGen UK Data base and the Jewish Chronicle Archives. The first record,Jewish Traders/Businesses in London 1769-1839-Phoebe GOLDSMID Shopkeeper 119 Rosemary Lane E Pigot 1836.

    The following two sources are from the Jewish Chronicle and taken from accounts by notable Jewish individuals regarding their early life.Both extracts refer to a Michael Goldsmid who taught them Hebrew studies. This Michael Goldsmid may or may not be one in the same as Michael Goldsmid who died in 1833.The first extract is from the life of Rev Aaron Levy Green youngest son of Levy Green born Middlesex Aldgate in 1821..." he received his earliest Hebrew instruction(part of the extract is in Hebrew)and Mr Michael Goldsmid one of the first masters of the Talmud Torah School in Bell Lane.."JC March 16 1883

    The second extract from Professor Marks JC July 8 1898
    .."My recollection of the Jews'Free School extend back 77 years ago, for I entered that institution in the Summer of 1821.. the Free school was situated in Ebenezer Square..the teacher was Rabbi MICHAEL GOLDSMID who kept a chandler shop in Rosemary Lane."
    The Committee of the Jews'Free School included Aaron Asher Goldsmid.

    I am aware that the term chandler referred to a person who sold soap and candles but it also included general traders. In the case of Michael Goldsmid grocer of 119 Rosemary Lane there was a part reference to him selling other goods but no indication as to what kind of shop his widow Phoebe had in the 1836 record.

    However, the sources suggest that Michael Goldsmid of 119 Rosemary Lane maybe the same person who taught at the early Jew's Free School.

    Phillip
    Phillip-Jewish,British Ancestry

    "The only true dead are those who have been forgotten"

  5. #5

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    There are some Ancestry Co family trees which have the name of Lewis CHAVA as the father of Phoebe and Sarah. The use of Chava in Hebrew as a last name is very uncommon and reference to JewishGen family tree finder shows only a very small number of individuals, mostly in Israel, with the last name Chava. Reference online to the first name Chava gives a range of derivations including the Anglicised version of Eve.
    Currently, none of the Ancestry family trees give a source for the father of Phoebe and Sarah and any other siblings as being Chava nor is there any marriage record reference.
    Whether or not the last name of Chava is accurate or is based on a derivation is unknown.
    Cecil Roth in his publication Provincial Jewry includes Norwich Norfolk in his summary and there were a very small number of Jews in the locality from the 1750s but to date I have been unable to identify anyone with the last name Chava given Sarah and Phoebe were born in Norwich during the period 1770s.

    If any researcher can identify the last name in Norwich for the period it would prove very useful.

    Phillip
    Phillip-Jewish,British Ancestry

    "The only true dead are those who have been forgotten"

  6. #6
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    Hi Phillip. I've read your posts here. Don't think I can help. Except to confirm that Eve is the English for Hebrew Chava (Awa in Arabic; Yeva in Turkish), the first woman (after Lilith, of course).
    Chava as a surname is interesting. I wonder if it was the result of an unmarried woman(Chava)having a son? Or a son with a non-Jewish father?
    Cheers, Eve /Awa / Chava / Yeva....

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