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  1. #11
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    Do any of the other letters give any hints? Such as any mention of other children.

  2. #12
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    Having seen the letters on an Ancestry family tree the name signed is HERBERTE not HERBERTS. I think that there is a better than average chance that he may have been the son of actors Charles HERBERTE and Violet SMYTH. Charles and Violet married in 1896 (West Ham district) but had at least two children prior to their marriage and there is a third child for Violet who survived to at least 1911 that I haven't identified.

    The two known children were Charles Steer HERBERTE (1890 Greenwich) and Dorothy HERBERTE (1893 Birkenhead, surname indexed as HERBERTS). Charles' middle name may have come from Janette STEER who acted with Charles HERBERTE.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janette_Steer

    There are lots of mentions of Charles' acting in the newspapers and in early 1891 they were in the north of England (newspaper articles in Jarrow, Birmingham, Hartlepool, Blackburn, Manchester etc.) It certainly fits with the story of travelling.

    In 1891 Charles and Violet are in Durham

    Class: RG12; Piece: 4042; Folio: 141; Page: 31

    Charles jnr is in Tottenham with Esther QUINTIN and family enumerated as a nephew.

    Class: RG12; Piece: 1071; Folio: 105; Page: 24

    In 1901 Charles and Violet are in Islington with son Charles

    Class: RG13; Piece: 189; Folio: 66; Page: 20

    I believe Dorothy is in Croydon with Richard and Ada HOLLAND as 'adopted' even though it has her place of birth as Greenwich. The reason that I am confident is that Ada was formerly QUINTON and was Esther's daughter (see 1891 census above). I have not looked to see what the actual relationship was between Charles, Violet and Esther.

    Class: RG13; Piece: 646; Folio: 102; Page: 10

    William may have been the son of either Charles or Violet or as a couple, or may have even been the son of someone else in the theatre company. If any of this scenario is true then finding a birth for him may be challenging.

  3. #13
    Super Moderator christanel's Avatar
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    Great work Dundee10.
    What a difference to a search one letter in a name does, although I did do some searching for Herbert* I didn't get a Herberte in the results. I'll blame ancestry and its quirks.
    Christina
    Sometimes paranoia is just having all the facts.
    William Burroughs

  4. #14
    Super Moderator christanel's Avatar
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    Third child of Charles and Violet?
    Nora Violet Herberte Sept 1/4 1891 reg dist Edmonton vol 3a page 354 MMN Smyth

    There is a tree on ancestry with this information which I haven't checked yet
    Nora Violet Herberte
    Spouse - Albert Cyril Cheesman married 1917
    Father Charles Herberte
    Mother - Violet (no maiden name)
    Birth 9/1891 England
    Death- New Zealand
    Residence - 1963 Fendalton Christchurch Canterbury New Zealand
    Christina
    Sometimes paranoia is just having all the facts.
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  5. #15
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    Thank you Christina, I thought I had looked properly but obviously not. Nora married as SANDERS in NZ, the only daughter of Mrs M. SANDERS, so if she was Nora HERBERTE then it appears she was also adopted out.

    https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/ne...EX19171231.2.5

    https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/ne...H19171208.2.12

    Mrs SANDERS and daughter Nora aged 8 went to NZ n 1900 so she won't appear on any UK census.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dundee10 View Post
    I have not looked to see what the actual relationship was between Charles, Violet and Esther.
    I think Charles HERBERTE was actually Charles KEMP, brother to Esther. In 1881 he is an actor living with his brother, mother and Arthur QUINTON in Edmonton.

  6. #16
    Super Moderator christanel's Avatar
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    There is the birth reg of a Violet Smyth June 1/4 1868 registration district Lambeth vol 1d page 441 mmn Stamp

    Marriage March 1/4 1860 St. Geo. H. Sq vol 1a page 276 Names on the same page Benjamin Price William Smyth and Hannah Maria Stamp.
    Christina
    Sometimes paranoia is just having all the facts.
    William Burroughs

  7. #17
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    Yes it seems that Violet was using her birth name. It might be worth seeing an original copy of the 1896 marriage register to compare the handwriting though just her signature may not give much to compare. I am currently having a look at her 1911 handwritten signature and address - twenty years later and it is certainly not as neat and at this point I would say not the same hand.

  8. #18
    Super Moderator christanel's Avatar
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    by Dundee10
    I think Charles HERBERTE was actually Charles KEMP, brother to Esther. In 1881 he is an actor living with his brother, mother and Arthur QUINTON in Edmonton.
    And in 1891
    RG12 Piece 1071 Folio 105
    Esther Quintin 46
    Ada Quintin 23
    John Quintin 21
    Emily Quintin 19
    Minnie Quintin 17
    Jessie Quintin 15
    Edith Quintin 9
    Alice Quintin 8
    John Kemp 58 single Brother
    Arthur Holland 23
    Charles S Herberte Nephew 10 months

    I went looking for Violet in the earlier censuses and found this in 1871.
    3 Liverpool Terrace Broadwater Worthing
    1871 Piece 1107 Folio 7 Page 6
    Henry Cheesman 40 Lodging house keeper Bracknell Berkshire
    Elizabeth Cheesman 38 wife Thursley Surrey
    Annie ElizabethCheesman 13 dau Marylebone (mmn Milton)
    Ellen Cheesman 9 Bracknell (possible birth mmn Milton )
    Kate Cheesman 6 Bracknell (possible birth Kate Emily mmn Milton)
    Amy Wilthen 57 Aunt Pinner? Middlesex
    Montrose Smyth 10 Bengal Allabeded, India
    Ethel Smyth 8 Bengal Allabeded, India
    Roble St Ledger Smyth 7 Bengal Allabeded, India
    Percy Smyth 4 Briston, Surrey (can't find a birth reg for him.
    Violet Smyth 3 Briston, Surrey (possible birth reg June 1/4 lambeth mmnStamp.}
    Cousande Smyth 4 Months Briston, Surrey (actually Corisande mmn Stamp)
    Fanny Lacke 20 Nursemaid

    marriage Elizabeth Milton and Henry Cheeseman Sept 1/4 1856 Marylebone vol 1a 716

    How the relationships stack up I haven't worked out yet but am intrigued that the surname Cheesman has cropped up again. (remember Violet's daughter married a Cheesman who was born in Tasmania to Albert Cheeseman and Agnes Shore.)

    So what to make of it all?
    Christina
    Sometimes paranoia is just having all the facts.
    William Burroughs

  9. #19

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    Hi ladies,

    A little more to add to your wonderful finds.

    1881, RG11; Piece: 1001; Folio: 46; Page: 38
    Benjn P.W. Smyth 60, Superintendent ???, Brackley
    Hannah M. Smyth 41, Reading Berkshire
    Noble St. Leger Smyth 17,
    Percy Smyth 14
    Violet Smyth 13
    Corisund Smyth 10
    Elizth. Ditton 42
    Children's birthplaces as 1871.

    Percy was registered and baptised as:
    Benjamin Henry Percy Smyth son of Benjamin Price William and Hannah Maria
    14 Nov 1866, Brixton St John the Evangelist, Lambeth, England
    Alma

  10. #20

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    According to a tree on Ancestry Hannah Maria Stamp's parents were Henry Stamp and Elizabeth Wilshin, Elizabeth Wilshin has a sister Amy Wilshin who I think is the aunt Amy born Pinner on 1871 census #18
    Alma

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