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  1. #11
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    The original question was "why does she sign with her maiden name"?

    Whatever this may be (recorded in the Notice of marriage), according to Schedule C of the 1836 Registration Act, the names that appear in the Column "Name and Surname" in the Section headed "Marriages solemnized at the Parish Church &c, &c …" on the registration document must be the names that appear against the declaration "This marriage was solemnized between us ……...".
    "dyfal donc a dyr y garreg"

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by helachau View Post
    The original question was "why does she sign with her maiden name"?

    Whatever this may be (recorded in the Notice of marriage), according to Schedule C of the 1836 Registration Act, the names that appear in the Column "Name and Surname" in the Section headed "Marriages solemnized at the Parish Church &c, &c …" on the registration document must be the names that appear against the declaration "This marriage was solemnized between us ……...".
    I had to post my reply hurriedly as Virgin was having problems yesterday so I did not complete my reply.

    Sorry but there seems to be some confusion the Schedules on the 1936 Marriage Act concern the following
    Schedule A : Example of notice of an intended marriage
    Schedule B : Example of Registrar’s Certificate
    Schedule C : Example of Superintendent Registrar’s Licence
    Schedule D : Example of witness statement

    A more informed view of the rules about what must appear in the Register is set out in the booklet Suggestions for the Guidance of Clergy

    “3 Ceremony
    3.3 Pre-marriage questions
    You must check there is no legal impediment to the marriage and ask the following questions of both parties:
    What is the name by which you are known and have you been known by any other name?
    The names and surnames must agree with those on the certificates. If there are any discrepancies you must question the parties further. If the differences can be satisfactorily explained, you should go ahead with the marriage.”

    As can be seen this is a check pre-marriage when the intended bride still uses her maiden name (or a previous married name for instance).
    After the couple are married, i.e. before signing the register the bride may assume her new husband’s name and sign the register with her new name as is her right under law.
    The difference would be obvious to the clergyman who conducted the marriage and would have a satisfactory explanation as above and the witnesses would be able to confirm the lady previously known as A B previously had signed the register as A C.

    Cheers
    Guy

    This is clarified in 4.33 Signing the entry
    "When the couple are satisfied that the entry is correct they must sign the attestation in their usual manner"
    There is also the option to add the remark "the signature of" which would clear up any future confusion
    Last edited by Guy Etchells; 15-05-2019 at 10:07 AM. Reason: Added a PS
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  3. #13
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    I have been working my way forward from the 1754 Act and had only reached 1the 1836 Act. Will check the 1936 schedules later

    regards
    "dyfal donc a dyr y garreg"

  4. #14
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    Intrigued by the use of " … in their usual manner.". Can hardly be said to apply if this is the first occasion the bride is signing her new surname.

    I note the examples given in the booklet "Guidebook for the Clergy" (2012 edition) all show bride's surname pre marriage (as recorded under Column 2, Name and Surname) against "This marriage was solemnized between us".
    "dyfal donc a dyr y garreg"

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    Quote Originally Posted by helachau View Post
    Intrigued by the use of " … in their usual manner.". Can hardly be said to apply if this is the first occasion the bride is signing her new surname.

    I note the examples given in the booklet "Guidebook for the Clergy" (2012 edition) all show bride's surname pre marriage (as recorded under Column 2, Name and Surname) against "This marriage was solemnized between us".
    Isn't that the answer? It wasn't solemnised between John Smith and Mary Smith (unless her maiden/widowed surname happened to be Smith). It was solemnised between John Smith and Mary Brown, so she would therefore sign Mary Brown.

    In spite of wimseys' wish in post #3 that he wants the register signed before the pronouncement, surely the prouncement is part of the service/solemnisation so therefore you can't sign the register until after the service/solemnisation has finished.

    Pam
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    Quote Originally Posted by helachau View Post
    Intrigued by the use of " … in their usual manner.". Can hardly be said to apply if this is the first occasion the bride is signing her new surname.

    I note the examples given in the booklet "Guidebook for the Clergy" (2012 edition) all show bride's surname pre marriage (as recorded under Column 2, Name and Surname) against "This marriage was solemnized between us".
    Of course it can, when the bride signs using her new surname that sets out the usual manner she intends to sign her name henceforth.
    If she is one with her husband as the customary marriage service claims then her old surname no longer applies.
    In the past she would be known as Mrs (husbands forename & surname) in these more enlightened days she can choose whatever name she wants to be known as from that day on.
    Logic then demands that her usual signature immediately changes to whatever new name she adopts, if she is not allowed to sign in her new name then by default the clergyman is putting asunder the joining of the man & wife. I.E. he is disregarding the teaching of the bible - Matthew 19:6.
    Cheers
    Guy
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  7. #17
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    Guy,
    I've been ploughing through marriage registers online, post 1936, and in every one I've checked the bride has signed under her name that appears in column 2 "Name and Surname" - ie. surname pre marriage.. I have yet to find and instance of a register signed by the bride in her new name.
    "dyfal donc a dyr y garreg"

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by helachau View Post
    Guy,
    I've been ploughing through marriage registers online, post 1936, and in every one I've checked the bride has signed under her name that appears in column 2 "Name and Surname" - ie. surname pre marriage.. I have yet to find and instance of a register signed by the bride in her new name.
    Helachau, I addressed that in the second & third sentences of my first answer!

    “The answer is very simple.
    Under the law of England and Wales a person's name is the name they use, if the person has not made the decision to change their name a marriage does not change their name.

    There is only one way to change ones name in England and Wales and that is by using the new name, everything else (including ‘Deed Poll’) is only evidence that a change of name has been undertaken.”

    For the full post please see reply 10.

    That is to say most people follow the instructions they are given without question, they do not take the time to apply logic to their actions and most do not understand that they have the legal right to change their name whenever they wish, or indeed have the courage to do so, as I explained in later posts.
    I predict due to a number of factors, e.g. male partners taking their female spouse’s name, gay marriage, meshing names etc., there will be many instances of change of name before the “register” is signed in future “registers”.

    In addition with the number of people who made a mark in early pre-1936 registers we cannot safely say how many would have used their new name, though I doubt it would be many as few would have the courage to do so.

    Cheers
    Guy
    As we have gained from the past, we owe the future a debt, which we pay by sharing today.

  9. #19
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    Nobody has mentioned the situation where, say, Mr Smith is marrying Miss Jones but they have been living together for some time and Miss Jones is known to all and sundry as Mrs Smith.

    I know what should happen, I'm just adding it to the pot for you to think about.

    I'd recommend the GRO's "Guidebook for the Clergy" for further reading.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Etchells View Post
    In the past she would be known as Mrs (husbands forename & surname) in these more enlightened days she can choose whatever name she wants to be known as from that day on.
    Logic then demands that her usual signature immediately changes to whatever new name she adopts, if she is not allowed to sign in her new name then by default the clergyman is putting asunder the joining of the man & wife. I.E. he is disregarding the teaching of the bible - Matthew 19:6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Etchells View Post
    “The answer is very simple.
    Under the law of England and Wales a person's name is the name they use, if the person has not made the decision to change their name a marriage does not change their name.

    There is only one way to change ones name in England and Wales and that is by using the new name, everything else (including ‘Deed Poll’) is only evidence that a change of name has been undertaken.”
    I'm getting confused about what you're actually saying, Guy. Are you saying that the marriage changes the woman's surname, in which case she should sign with her married name, or that it doesn't, in which case she can sign and call herself whatever she wants? Or are you just playing devil's advocate?

    If she is free to call herself whatever she wants, what is there to complain about, or even comment on, if she decides that she will be known by her pre-marriage surname until immediately after she has signed the marriage registers, and then changes to her husband's name?

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