Lilian Hilda Stoten or Rose Harper?

[Pam Downes]

Rose Harper married William Thomas Stoten in 1906 in Luton.

In the 1901 census there was a 9 year old Rose Harper living in Luton with her widowed father Arthur and her older sister Daisy, and they were all born in Oxfordshire.

Census ref for 1901 is RG13/1514 folio 162 page 42

This would appear to be that Daisy and Rose in the 1891 census.
RG12/1274 folio 85 page 5
Mary WICKSON, 56, widow,
Mary HARPER, daur, 25
Charlotte WICKSON, daur, 20
Arthur WICKSON, son, 14
Daisy HARPER, granddaughter, 2
Rose HARPER, granddaughter, 8 months
All born Eynsham, which is in Witney registration district.

Birth registrations:
Daisy Harper, September quarter 1888.
Rose Harper, September quarter 1890.
Both, mother's maiden name Wickson; both Witney registration district.

Can't find a marriage for a Mary Wickson to a Harper 1882- 1900.

Based on the 1901 census, can't find a Arthur Harper, born 1848 +/- 5 years in Oxfordshire, in 1891.

ADDED: There is a significant age gap between that of Mary Harper in 1891 (25) who is presumably Daisy and Rose' mother and that of Arthur (53 in 1901) who is said to be the children's father. Think more censuses need looking at to see if the ages in 1891/1901 might have been enumerator error.

Pam

[susanlilian]

Thank you Pam I have always wondered why there is an age difference in 1891 and the 1901 cencus. It is interesting that one solution is a enumerator error. I have searched the 1911 cencus and found nothing. If Rose and Lily are the same person then I know Lily was pregnant with her first child with Charles Francis Hutchison in from memory (sorry I haven’t got access to my certificates at the mJuly 1911. I know she met Charles after the 1911 cencus as he came over from Accra Ghana on 3rd July 1911 I have the shipping records. My father was born in Eynsham Oxford her fourth child (if he is her biological child )My theory is because my Father was born on the 10th May 1918 during the First World War Rose/Lily (we call her nanny Taylor as she was Living with/married to George Taylor at the end of her Life and my cousins remember her) who was living in London or South End at the time her third child Delbank was born in South End on Sea and her fifth was born at 332 Clapham Road London she went to her home town to have the baby. Dad was born in Acre End Street Eynsham Oxford. She says in the Harpenden Children’s home records in 1930 that hur son ! Charles my father was born in Oxford. I have lots of information on the family which when I get home from our stay at the caravan I will post it. It is just a shame I have no conclusive evidence who my blood grandmother is. I am not sure I will ever know. Thank you for your post SUSAN

[Pam Downes]

Depending on how much money you want to throw around, it might be worth investing a few quid in the birth certificate for the Rose Harper registered September quarter 1890. You can either take a chance and pay six quid for a PDF certificate (plain black and white, sent via an email link), or go the traditional route and spend £9.25 on the pinky/red certified copy but tell the GRO Rose's birthdate is 21 August 1890. If it isn't, then the GRO will refund your money. I've found differences between dates on birth certificates, 1939 Register, and death certificates. Sometimes a day or two, sometimes a year or two.

Rose/Lilian wouldn't be the first person to totally change her name or lie - we've found plenty of those on BG over the years.

Pam

[Pam Downes]

Rose/Lily (we call her nanny Taylor as she was Living with/married to George Taylor at the end of her Life and my cousins remember her) SUSAN

Just picked up on this bit.
So if Rose/Lily was with George at the end of her life why is there an amendment from Taylor to Daly in the 1939 Register? Do you know when she died, and do you have a copy of her death certificate?

Pam

[Dundee10]

It appears that Rose had two sons with William STOTEN - William Thomas in 1907 and Arthur Gilbert in 1908. In 1911 William is with his father and Arthur is with his STOTEN grandparents. There are several family trees on Ancestry for these people so perhaps you should contact them and organise to compare DNA. At least it will tell you if there is a close relationship between the STOTEN and HUTCHISON family.

[Megan Roberts]

Whilst checking the GRO references for the 2 births that Dundee10 found I noticed the following against Arthur's - see underlined:


STOTEN, ARTHUR GILBERT HARPER
GRO Reference: 1908 D Quarter in LUTON Volume 03B Page 378 Occasional Copy: A

Does anyone know what that means?

[wimsey]

Whilst checking the GRO references for the 2 births that Dundee10 found I noticed the following against Arthur's - see underlined:


STOTEN, ARTHUR GILBERT HARPER
GRO Reference: 1908 D Quarter in LUTON Volume 03B Page 378 Occasional Copy: A

Does anyone know what that means?

Peter Calver, the man behind the Lost Cousins Newsletter, contacted the GRO about this and wrote an article in one of his December 2016 newsletters.
https://www.lostcousins.com/newslett...htm#Occasional

[Megan Roberts]

I had a quick look at the "Stoten" family tree on Ancestry and:

William Thomas Stoten did not die until 1965 and married Kathleen Harvey in 1922 with whom he had 4 children between 1916 - 1923.
It would be interesting to know how he described himself on his second marriage as I can't see a record of a divorce.

Also according to the same tree Rose was born in 1890, the daughter of James Harper and Mary Ann Wickson and her sister was Daisy who died in 1908 (see pose #8). In the 1891 census Rose & Daisy are shown living with the Wickson family.


Findmypast Newspapers have an article in Luton Reporter 4 June 1917 entitled "Home for Deserted Child" all about Rose Stoten being hauled up before the magistrates for abandoning her child, and being separated from her husband and living with another man in Southend. The child had originally been abandoned in Lewisham, and they had returned it to Luton, under the poor law rules, and Luton had finally traced her to Southend.

[almach]

Findmypast Newspapers have an article in Luton Reporter 4 June 1917 entitled "Home for Deserted Child" all about Rose Stoten being hauled up before the magistrates for abandoning her child, and being separated from her husband and living with another man in Southend. The child had originally been abandoned in Lewisham, and they had returned it to Luton, under the poor law rules, and Luton had finally traced her to Southend.

A super find, Megan.

I've been following this thread with interest, but the heat has been too much for me and made me feel quite ill, I lacked the concentration necessary for searching effectively. It mattered not, the super sleuths got to work and 'sorted most of it'. Well done.

ETA: I do think Megan's newspaper find more or less confirms Rose Stoten is the same lady who met, married and had children with Charles Hutchison, but only you can decide Susan. Combine the evidence with Dundee's find at #15 (two children born STOTEN, MMN HARPER) It is interesting that one of the STOTEN boys was named Arthur as that's the name of Rose's father who she was with in 1901.

The sleuths have certainly taken the query nearer to conclusion.

[almach]

The address in the 1939 Register is Northumberland Crescent, Feltham.
Lily Taylor's date of birth is 21 August 1892.
There is an amendment in blue of the surname to Daly, with the date of 24.7.50.

Marriages Dec 1948, Middlesex S. 5f 199
Patrick Daly/Lily Taylor