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  1. #1
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    Default S LYDIA CLARKE/HOWELL THOMAS/ERNEST G JONES

    SARAH LYDIA CLARKE/HOWELL THOMAS/ERNEST GWNFOR JONES

    I would very much appreciate some help as I have done an immense amount of work on the three people above and now it seems I have gone wrong somewhere which is infuriating but can't exactly work out where. I would welcome info/help - all info so far is on my Anc tree.

    1) SARAH LYDIA CLARKE AND HOWELL THOMAS

    I have info for my relative Sarah Lydia Clarke - born 1902 Neath, died 1984 Ohio. In 1921 she married Howell Thomas (Reg. Neath)
    They had a daughter here and then went to Quebec and settled in Ohio. I have seemingly gone wrong with info for Howell. On documentation he states he was born 3rd August 1897 Cwmavon, parents David and Mary Thomas. In his Obituary he is son of the late David and Mary Ann Thomas.

    I found a possible marriage 1882 Q1 Neath David Thomas to Mary Ann Thomas and it was confirmed
    "that both the Maiden Name and Married Name are indeed THOMAS."

    So I then found what I thought was his Birth :

    "THOMAS, HOWEL mmn THOMAS GRO Reference: 1897 S Quarter in NEATH Volume 11A Page 861"

    NB Mother's maiden name also THOMAS which since this is wales isn't unlikely.
    I have the 1891 census RG12/4459 where the wife/his mother puts born Loughor Glamorgan.
    On the 1911 (address 3 ynis-afan terrace, cwmavon) she puts born Glamorgan County.
    I then found info for the siblings - on the 1911 it says 9 born, 6 alive and 3 died.

    Then what has put a spanner in the works is that on the census 1901 RG 13/5054

    David Thomas age 41 b Cwmavon Head
    wife Mary Ann 40 born Cwmavon
    MOTHER IN LAW; SARAH EVANS 68 born Llanelly, Carm.

    So I am lost with how the EVANS surname fits in as that should mean that the wife/mother's maiden name was Evans in which case I am in despair as surely that means all the above is wrong?

    2) HOWELL THOMAS' AUNT LIZZIE

    Howell sails from Liverpool 9th May 1925 third class on S.S. Athenia ahead of wife Sarah Lydia Thomas & daughter Laura Clarke Thomas. Address Canada: Aunt Mrs Lizzie Thomas, POB 1341, Welland, Ontario. Born Cwmavon, Wales. From "Canadian Gov. Return" Pass.List.

    I would very much like to find who his Aunt was. I have been sent a lot of info from Canada/America.
    With only the address to go by she has been found and from her Obituary she was Elizabeth Rachel nee JONES. . Died 1942 in her 54th year so born c1888 Cwmavon.Her husband was Alfred L Thomas*

    *I have not added her info to my tree since I don't know how she fits into the picture. Typing the surname Thomas now I realise that she would have been Howell's Aunt through her marriage to a brother of her Father David?

    I found a marriage June 1907 Neath Elizabeth Jones to Alfred L Thomas. She had 2 brothers and 5 sisters
    from the Obituary. On the 1913 passenger list for when she and Alfred sailed to Canada there are four children, Ivor 11, Mervyn 8, John 2 and Sarah 4 months. I have found info for them but too many possibles with surname Jones.
    The brothers were Thomas in America and William Cwmavon. 5 sisters 1) Mrs Wilfred Jones. 2 & 3 )Misses Maggie and Gladys Jones Cwmavon. 4) Mrs William Winklin says Perth but assume Porth, Wales and 5) Mrs Percy Evans London but two possible marriages for her.

    Elizabeth and Alfred had 4 sons and 3 daughters, names listed in the obituary but no info on them.


    3) DIVORCE AND REMARRIAGE

    Sarah Lydia and Howell Thomas divorce and marry Ernest Gwynfor Jones and I have found info for him
    and his parents and siblings thanks to info on his marriage licence 1938 Ohio:
    "Sarah L Thomas, 35. Divorced. Father William Clarke, Mother Beatrice Clarke nee Reynolds & ERNEST JONES, 37, born England. Father David Jones, Mother Anne Lewis . Occ: Machinist. Married once before, deceased . Both of 1111 Ansel Rd, Cleveland, Ohio."

    Out of curiosity I would have liked to have found his previous marriage but with surname Jones and no other
    info guess impossible.

    In 1928 Howell Thomas and family cross from Canada to USA "Howell, wife Sarah Lydia & daughter Laura cross from Canada to America. Purpose "Book work". To join his friend Ernest Jones in Youngstown, Ohio."
    ie see above re Sarah Lydia divorce and remarriage.

    Any input more than welcome!
    Jill

  2. #2
    Super Moderator christanel's Avatar
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    David Thomas age 41 b Cwmavon Head
    wife Mary Ann 40 born Cwmavon
    MOTHER IN LAW; SARAH EVANS 68 born Llanelly, Carm.

    So I am lost with how the EVANS surname fits in as that should mean that the wife/mother's maiden name was Evans in which case I am in despair as surely that means all the above is wrong?
    Sarah's first husband (Mary Ann's father) may have died and Sarah Thomas married a Mr. Evans.

    Christina
    Sometimes paranoia is just having all the facts.
    William Burroughs

  3. #3
    Super Moderator - Completely bonkers and will never change.
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    Quote Originally Posted by christanel View Post
    Sarah's first husband (Mary Ann's father) may have died and Sarah Thomas married a Mr. Evans.

    Christina
    It gets confusing when father/sister/whatever-in-law in those days could mean step-father/sister/whatever, as well as the way we use the in-law term today. And it's often made worse when the widower/widow marries for a second time to someone with the same first name as their first spouse.

    Pam
    Vulcan XH558 - “Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.”

  4. #4
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    Thanks CHRISTINA AND PAM

    Re 1) Mother in law Sarah Evans

    I got this info from the 1901 census which I have.
    I have been unable to access the free ANC today until now when an email in from them which now means I can click on my
    Hints and get some info but not all.
    So I have gone to the 1901 census info (not the actual census although that's there) and this says "Mary Anne Thomas
    (Mary Anne Evans). Mother Sarah Evans."

    It's a relief to note the children and ages listed on the info are the same as I had worked on from the actual 1901 census.

    So ... does this mean they know something I don't ie she was Evans or is the "computer" guessing that?

    Not sure why I started this but would like to wrap it up - plus the other mysteries in my posting!
    Jill

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    Super Moderator - Completely bonkers and will never change.
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    Hints are just that - hints. And with all the Williams, Thomas', Jones', and Evans (and that just first names ) in Wales I wouldn't trust a hint as far as I could spit a peanut. (As I don't like peanuts it means 'not an inch'.)
    It's for you to look at that hint, and then decide if that person might be the one you want.

    I've often looked at the 'suggested records' at the side of a transcription on Ancestry and although some are relevant others are way off the mark.

    If you haven't already done so you need to trace the David THOMAS, wife Mary, and mother-in-law Sarah back through the earlier census.
    I would also check on the GRO's Historical Births Index that Howell's siblings (both older and younger) have the same mother's maiden name as Howell's.

    Pam
    Vulcan XH558 - “Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.”

  6. #6
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    Thanks PAM
    Re your second point. Yes I found all the siblings of Howell with the mmn Thomas which worries me that it's all wrong.
    Re your first point. I don't know how to find census returns but I don't understand how to do that. with such limited info and surname Thomas.
    I have the 1891 census (and 1901 and 1911) from which I got approx dob for Father David and birth Cwmavon

  7. #7
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    PS What I would very much welcome is help finding "Aunt Lizzie" on a census return - I have her info from the obituary ie her name and
    her husband and children. Hopefully that would enable me to tie her in with Howell Thomas.

    I was sent a Passenger list for her which the person got from Anc but now there's confusion as to the date which is annoying
    having worked out the ages of the children deducting it from the original date of 1913.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilian rowland View Post
    Thanks PAM
    Re your second point. Yes I found all the siblings of Howell with the mmn Thomas which worries me that it's all wrong.
    Why, exactly, do you think it's all wrong? To me, it implies that David only married once. (Yes, there is a possibility that he married two women called Mary Thomas, but I think it's likely to be remote, especially if the children born/living/died are against her name in the 1911 census.)
    Re your first point. I don't know how to find census returns but I don't understand how to do that. with such limited info and surname Thomas.
    I have the 1891 census (and 1901 and 1911) from which I got approx dob for Father David and birth Cwmavon
    That doesn't make sense, but even with common names you search the way you always do.
    Go to the census year (in this case you will need 1881) and if you're on Ancestry you need to scroll down the page and select Wales 1881.
    Enter David Thomas,enter birth year based on his age in the 1891 census (though I search +/- two years as most ancestors were a bit vague on their birth year). Enter his birth place. And if any of the children in the 1891 census were born prior to 1881 you could try entering the birthplace of the youngest as the place he would have been living. (e.g. if you have a Fred born 1880 in Ballamory, enter Ballamory. Doesn't always work, but it does sometimes.)

    Ditto Sarah Evans, though you'll probably have to start with the 1891 census for her.
    Select the Welsh census, work our her birth year based on her age in 1901, and enter Llanelly as birthplace.

    Then work back to the 1871 and earlier censuses, using the same method.

    With a bit of luck you might find Sarah EVANS and David THOMAS in the same household in 1871 or 1881.

    ADDED: I forgot to say that if you can't find David with/connected to a Sarah Evans, then trace Mary, his wife, back to see if Sarah is his mother-in-law in the way we know the relationship today - his wife's mother.

    Pam
    Vulcan XH558 - “Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.”

  9. #9
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    Thanks PAM

    " Why, *exactly*, do you think it's all wron g?"

    because of the mother in law being Evans

    I'm not a member of Anc so can't access the census returns.

    I feel sure that I could progress this if I found Aunt Lizzie as it must be that her husband Alfred L Thomas was a brother of Howell Thomas' Father David.
    I worked out the ages of her children from a passenger list I was sent from Anc from Canada dated 1913 but this morning have been told it was 1920.

    I have her Obituary and again the age given in that doesn't match the age on the passenger list although as previously given, it does give names of her family.

    just seen the added sentence

    with thanks
    Jill

  10. #10

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    U.S., Border Crossings from Canada to U.S., 1895-1960 for Alfred L Thomas

    Arrival 31 Mar 1913

    Born Glamorgan S. Wales. Age 28yrs. Lab. Last permanent residence, Welland Ont.

    Last address of nearest relative or friend in country whence alien came: Uncle Benjamin Davis, Hazelwood???(unclear) Glamorgan S. Wales

    Ever in US, yes from 1911 - 1912.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


    Departed from London, 28 Mar 1920, on ship Melita, Arrived St John, New Brunswick, Canada

    All born Wales. Destination Welland
    Alfred L Thomas 34; Elizabeth 30; Iver 11; Mervyn 8; John 2; Sarah 4 months
    Alma

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