The mysterious Hardy

[Ashleigh_]

Hi everyone,

I am having some difficulty with one person in my family tree that I would really like to get to the bottom of. I hope that I will be able to get some help and advice on where to go from here.

My 2x great grandmother Agnes Smith was born in October 1881 and died as Agnes Hayes in July 1970 in Salford, Greater Manchester.

Prior to 'marrying' Albert Hayes of Salford she was married to a man with the surname Hardy (No one knows his first name) but together they had 2 daughter Florence born 1902 and Mary born 1906.

I have found Agnes in the 1911 census lodging with Albert Hayes (A Bachelor) with Florence, Mary, Albert (Hardy) and their son Rafe (Ralph) Hayes. On the census it states that Albert Snr is single and Agnes Hardy as being married of 10 years.

Albert jnrs birth certificate has him as Albert Hardy (no father's detail on the certificate) but he was baptised as Albert Hayes a couple of months later with Albert and Agnes Hayes as parents.

I can't find any information about Agnes' first husband. I can't find any Florence or Mary Hardys born in Salford. Or a marriage record for Agnes Smith and Hardy or a marriage record for Agnes Hardy and Albert Hayes. It's a mystery!

I heard from a member of my living family that there was some Yorkshire connection to Agnes but they didn't know when. I found an index record for a Florence Hardy born in 1902 in Nottingham (no mother's maiden name available). But I could purchase a load of birth certificates and still not have gotten anywhere.

Hayes is sometimes spelled Heyes in some records.

Does anyone have any advice on anything that I could try? or is it a case of ordering the birth certificates for Florence Hardy on the off chance?

[Peter Goodey]

Albert jnrs birth certificate has him as Albert Hardy (no father's detail on the certificate)

Can't make out what you mean there. Is the mother shown as "Agnes HARDY" or "Agnes HARDY formerly SMITH" or some thing else?

[Megan Roberts]

According to the death index the Agnes Hayes who died 1970 Salford was born 23 Oct 1881 and therefore her birth must have been registered in either the last quarter of 1881 or the first quarter of 1882. The following are the births that you would have to consider:

SMITH, AGNES CATON
GRO Reference: 1881 D Quarter in FYLDE Volume 08E Page 671
SMITH, AGNES WILLIAMS
GRO Reference: 1881 D Quarter in WEST DERBY Volume 08B Page 457
SMITH, AGNES DUNLOP
GRO Reference: 1881 D Quarter in PRESCOT Volume 08B Page 722
SMITH, AGNES DAW
GRO Reference: 1881 D Quarter in TIVERTON Volume 05B Page 423
SMITH, AGNES SMITH
GRO Reference: 1881 D Quarter in DONCASTER IN THE COUNTIES OF YORK AND NOTTINGHAM Volume 09C Page 701
SMITH, AGNES GREEN
GRO Reference: 1881 D Quarter in BIRKENHEAD Volume 08A Page 533
SMITH, AGNES MOWBRAY
GRO Reference: 1882 M Quarter in DONCASTER Volume 09C Page 679
SMITH, AGNES -
GRO Reference: 1882 M Quarter in HELMSLEY Volume 09D Page 431
SMITH, AGNES BARNBY
GRO Reference: 1882 M Quarter in POPLAR Volume 01C Page 722

I have not included any where there is a second first name.

I cannot see any marriage between Agnes Smith and a Mr Hardy in England and Wales anywhere. There is no birth registration for a Florence Hardy in 1902 +/- 2 years where the mother’s maiden name is Smith. The same applies for Mary in 1906. However, what I have found are the two below.

HAYES, FLORENCE SMITH
GRO Reference: 1903 M Quarter in MELTON MOWBRAY Volume 07A Page 323
HAYES, MARY SMITH
GRO Reference: 1908 M Quarter in CHESTERFIELD Volume 07B Page 787

Do you have Agnes Smith and Albert Hayes marriage certificate? If so what does that say?

[peanut]

Hi
found this
Baptism: 19 Oct 1906 Cathedral Church of St John the Evangelist, Salford, Lancashire, England
Florentia Hardy - filia Thomae Hardy & Agnetis (formerly Smith)
Born: 29 Jan 1901
Abode: 20 Hatherton St.
Godparents: Maria Chadwick
Notes: Sub cond.
Baptised by: J. Arturo O' Connor

PEANUT

[peanut]

Hi
also
Baptism: 19 Oct 1906 Cathedral Church of St John the Evangelist, Salford, Lancashire, England
Maria Hardy - filia Thomae Hardy & Agnetis (formerly Smith)
Born: 22 Nov 1905
Abode: 20 Hatherton St.
Godparents: Ricardus Chadwick; Maria Higgins
Notes: Sub cond.
Baptised by: J. Arturo O' Connor

PEANUT

[Peter Goodey]

According to the death index the Agnes Hayes who died 1970 Salford was born 23 Oct 1881

Good research!

The death certificate should also show the place of birth. I would obtain this first.

Knowing the date of birth, I think she has enough to order a certificate without any GRO reference - name, two possible quarters and the exact date of birth. GRO should be able to sort that out. Hopefully there aren't two with exactly the same date of birth.

[Ashleigh_]

Can't make out what you mean there. Is the mother shown as "Agnes HARDY" or "Agnes HARDY formerly SMITH" or some thing else?

Hi Peter,

The birth certificate for Albert Hardy jnr has the mother's name as Agnes Hardy. No mention of her maiden name however, I know it is correct because the address of the place of birth matches other records I have.

[peanut]

Hi

So are these two baptisms correct. home address Abode Hatherton street , am i reading this wrong was she a Smith when she had children with Mr Hardy

Peanut

[Ashleigh_]

According to the death index the Agnes Hayes who died 1970 Salford was born 23 Oct 1881 and therefore her birth must have been registered in either the last quarter of 1881 or the first quarter of 1882. The following are the births that you would have to consider:

SMITH, AGNES CATON
GRO Reference: 1881 D Quarter in FYLDE Volume 08E Page 671
SMITH, AGNES WILLIAMS
GRO Reference: 1881 D Quarter in WEST DERBY Volume 08B Page 457
SMITH, AGNES DUNLOP
GRO Reference: 1881 D Quarter in PRESCOT Volume 08B Page 722
SMITH, AGNES DAW
GRO Reference: 1881 D Quarter in TIVERTON Volume 05B Page 423
SMITH, AGNES SMITH
GRO Reference: 1881 D Quarter in DONCASTER IN THE COUNTIES OF YORK AND NOTTINGHAM Volume 09C Page 701
SMITH, AGNES GREEN
GRO Reference: 1881 D Quarter in BIRKENHEAD Volume 08A Page 533
SMITH, AGNES MOWBRAY
GRO Reference: 1882 M Quarter in DONCASTER Volume 09C Page 679
SMITH, AGNES -
GRO Reference: 1882 M Quarter in HELMSLEY Volume 09D Page 431
SMITH, AGNES BARNBY
GRO Reference: 1882 M Quarter in POPLAR Volume 01C Page 722

I have not included any where there is a second first name.

I cannot see any marriage between Agnes Smith and a Mr Hardy in England and Wales anywhere. There is no birth registration for a Florence Hardy in 1902 +/- 2 years where the mother’s maiden name is Smith. The same applies for Mary in 1906. However, what I have found are the two below.

HAYES, FLORENCE SMITH
GRO Reference: 1903 M Quarter in MELTON MOWBRAY Volume 07A Page 323
HAYES, MARY SMITH
GRO Reference: 1908 M Quarter in CHESTERFIELD Volume 07B Page 787

Do you have Agnes Smith and Albert Hayes marriage certificate? If so what does that say?

Hi Megan,

I have no marriage cert for Albert and Agnes. I can't find any record of their marriage. But they had 3 more children together after 1911. The last child was my Great-Grandmother Leah in 1920.

Florence and Mary would have been born as Hardy though and not Hayes. It seems as though she did not meet Albert Hayes until around 1908/1909.

[Ashleigh_]

Hi

So are these two baptisms correct. home address Abode Hatherton street , am i reading this wrong was she a Smith when she had children with Mr Hardy

Peanut

Hi Peanut,

The records that you found certainly are interesting. I have no idea whether these are correct or not but there seems to be a lot of coincidences here. All I know is that my Great Aunt who is still living said that with Agnes along with her first husband had the children Florrie and Mary, Florrie was later written as Florrence in the 1911 census.

The birth dates of the girls seem to match what I was looking for (they were only estimates anyway from how old they were in 1911), the names are very similar. I'm thinking of how realistic it would be to have two families in the same town with the same surname, similar mothers name and similar daughter's names, same dates...... Have you encountered such changes in names in your own family history search?

I have just tried searching the GRO birth index for Florentia and Maria Hardy with their respective dates and nothing is showing up..