Introduction & unusual request . . .

[phillip]

I have read the full will of Benjamin Goldsmid who died in 1808 the famous banker/financier. He names JAMES PHILLIPS as his clerk.
The relationship between the Goldsmid/Phillips maybe one of friendship between Benjamin Goldsmid and James Phillips rather than anything deeper hence the inclusion of Goldsmid as a middle name for Elizabeth and the Lyons from another business relationship.
Will look further.
Phillip

[JenBales]

Good morning Philip
Wow - you have certainly managed to get so much info!
It would have taken me another 10 years just to get this far
Wouldn't it be amazing if you found them!!

I was just thinking about the names in my direct line:
John g.g.g.g.grandfather, John his son g.g.g. grandfather, James Henry Wildermere g.g. grandfather George Lennox Oswald and then my Dad who had his name changed from Alexander to Neville!!

John & Sarah's children's baptismal dates are strange when you look at them - they range from 1839 - 1840 - 1842 - 1843 - 1845 with some of the younger children baptised before some of the older ones !!
Strange ???
Kind regards.

[JenBales]

Hello again Philip
ok - my thoughts now that I have kind of taken in what you said . .
Do you think it is possible that John (1820 Settler) father was James - and not John?

I have also been looking at England and Wales non-Conformist Record Indexes (RG4-8) 1588-1977 (FAMILYSEARCH)
Came across this:
John Phillips - Birth - 22 March 1798 - Place: Holborn, Middlesex
Father: John Phillips - Mother: Elizabeth
Affiliate Publication #: RG8_0060
and ...
Name: John Phillips
Baptism 29 March 1798 - Holborn, Middlesex
Father John Phillips - Mother: Elizabeth
Affiliate Publication # RG8_0064

Interesting - right place?? right time frame??
Thoughts?
I feel I am going around in a circle - not the best at trying to look up things!
Kind regards.

[phillip]

I will look more closely at the data in the last post. It maybe that James Phillips is the brother of John who appears as a witness at the marriage. You will also note that Benjamin Goldsmid and his wife Jesse had a son James b 1791 and baptised after his father died as were his mother and siblings. This conversion to Christianity may have arisen for several reasons. Some authors say it was because this line of Goldsmid had assimilated closely with non Jews. Whatever the reason, there was a move by the children of Benjamin and Jesse to 'marry out' of the Jewish faith.
We need to establish if possible who James Phillips was married to 1st marriage and was the John who is named in the marriage 2nd time a brother or son.
Phillip

[JenBales]

I had another look at the same site and found:
Born Children & Parents Names + Baptism
26762 on the 10th August 1803 James of John & Elizabeth Phillips - bap. 15th Sept 1803

If my post at 11.38 am by some amazing miracle is right then this James would be John's brother ??
Have a good evening.

[phillip]

The problem still remains that we don't know precisely dob for James Phillips and for John Phillips who appear in the Marriage Record. We know that James Phillips was still with Benjamin Goldsmid at the time of Benjamin's suicide in 1808 and this gives James a long period of employment with Benjamin. We don't have any data for the death of James nor do we know the relationship between James and John.
The reference to the John Phillips who is recorded as a 'farmer' in the 1820 SA record maybe a generic term. If a similar title of farmer for one of my Jewish lines and this individual was a land and property owner and never a farmer in the common sense of the term.
We can pick names from the records but this is insufficient data to confirm whether or not those named are the right persons.
I will see whatever records there maybe which can help. Can the Lyons middle name shed any light on other possible relationships?
Phillip

[phillip]

I noted on the Ancestry.Com data base that the inclusion of Lyons for a middle name was very uncommon. There was a Louisa Lyons Phillips baptised 26 Sept 1824 St Marylebone Westmister -father Richard and mother Ann. This Louisa appears in the 1851 Census at 15 Lower Symons Street HO107 1474 15 443 47 (Crown Copyright,TNA) with her uncle James Phillips H M 48 Carpenter b Hants with his wife and children.
Louisa appears as a witness at the marriage of Sarah Jane a daughter of James in the above 1851 census. Sarah married William Bessant at the Parish Church St.Luke Chelsea.
Louisa signs her name as Louisa LYONS Phillips- the other witness a William Giles Leversune???

I can't locate Louisa with her Lyons middle name post 1852 nor can I identify further her parents.
It may or may not be the case that there is a relationship to your Phillips. There is also a Montague LYONS Phillips who appears in the Brighton records 1852 at 6 Victoria Terrace and I think there are a couple more with Lyons as a middle name.
Phillip

[JenBales]

Hello Philip
I have been having a look through my notes and there is no other mention of GOLDSMID or LYONS

I have the DN's from my dad Neville, his father LGO, his father James Henry Wildermere, his father John, his father John 1820 Settler.

Looking at the kids of John & Sarah:
Mary Dodgson Phillips as b. Nov 3 1823
Baptised Dec 9th, 1839 ???
There is a note on the British 1820 Settlers to South Africa website that she was adopted, surname Dodgson - born at Gumgrove, Debe Nek. I have a feeling she was Sarah's step sister - her father Richard's 1st wife was Ellen Dodgson. No mention of what happened to her.
Elizabeth Goldsmid was b. Dec 9, 1824
Only baptised on Nov 27, 1842 ???
Henry Lyons was b. Oct 6, 1827
Baptised Nov 27th 1844 ??? (Bat. #290)

Why would these children only have been baptised years later ??

Also John was a young man when he sailed to his new life in SA. However, there was a terrible recession in England at that time. Someone with money must have paid the 30 GBP for his fare !!

I really appreciate all your help... really difficult one though!
Kind regards.

[JenBales]

Was also just thinking:

Marriage 1790
JAMES PHILLIPS of St Dunstans in the West, Lond.,w, and Mary STOKES, s.l. by B.L. wit: Mary Lesley, Benj.GOLDSMID, Hester SALOMONS, JOHN PHILLIPS

This John Phillips could have been the father of (John Phillips 1820 Settler) If James was his brother and he got married in 1790..he must have been 20 +/- when he got married - so he would have been born around 1770 ???
I had info (un proved) that John's dad was b. 1775.

Just supposition!

[JenBales]

Hello Philip
I have just found on a Cawood posting (very intermingled with the Phillips) John Phillips 1820 Settler d. 24/01/1859
His age is given as 60 years 3 months and 8 days .... (DN 5799 - Jul 15th 1859)
Would you say then he was born 16th Oct 1797 - or would it be the other way - 16th March 1798 ???
There is a note Baptised July 4th 1802 - Keighley, York ???
What do you think ??
Kind regards.