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  1. #11

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    I note on some Ancestry.Com family trees that the middle name of Henry Phillips is given as Lyall and on others Lyon aka Lyons. Similarly, for Elizabeth her middle name is Goldsmith and also Goldsmid. Do you have confirmation regarding the actual middle names? I ask because Lyall and Goldsmith are also common Anglicised names and if correct weaken any possible Jewish links as per Goldsmid/Rothschild.
    Phillip

  2. #12

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    Having read your original messages on Rootsweb almost ten years ago regarding John Phillips and potential Jewish roots the issues appear to be:
    1 Did John Phillips actually have any Jewish roots via his maternal line
    2 Were the middle names of 2 of his children Goldsmid/Lyons
    3 If John Phillips was a Jew why did he have major Protestant church links in SA
    4 The 1820 SA settlers had some Jewish families but there were also many non Jews
    5 Other than hearsay there is no direct proof John Phillips had any Jewish roots
    6 The Ancestry.Com family trees have given the baptism records of at least 2 John Phillips but non can be confirmed as relating to the John Phillips who settled in SA

    Of course, John Phillips may have Jewish roots unknown at present but I can't see any data that indicates this.
    Phillip

  3. #13
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    Default Thanks again, Philip

    Hi Philip
    In reply to your last post:
    1. Unfortunately, as mentioned we did not actual know anything about my Dad's family. I met my grandfather Lennox George Oswald Phillips a few times but was young when he died. All my Dad really told us was that he was born in Matatiela in Transkei, where his father and a couple of his brothers owned Trading Stations. This is where he grew up.. he became a really fast spin bowler at cricket, as his young local friends taught him to knock a bird out of a tree, using a stick!!
    2. I only have the names of his 2 children as Lyons and Goldsmid.
    3. I believe that in the early days there was no Jewish church. John married a Christian who's faith followed that of the protestant church? John and Sarah's marriage according to the Matrimonial Court Minutes and Special Marriage Licenses: 1821 - 1884, Grahamstown. Note that according to this John would have been born in 1800/1 in order to be 23 in 1823 and Sarah 1801/2. Hockley lists John as being 19 as do a few other sources. Another source for their marriage :Matrimonial Court Minutes : Film #1886513 Entry #31 : 2/1/1823
    Husband: John PHILLIPS, 23, Protestant, England
    Wife: Sarah HAYHURST, 22, Protestant, England
    If you look at birth dates and baptism dates of John And Sarah's children it is very weird! Only got baptised years later.
    4. I agree that other than hearsay there is no direct proof of John Phillips being Jewish. I did also get an email from Don Whitfield related to me through marriage. He say:
    On my motherís side of the family I also have Jewish ancestry. One would not have said so from the look of my motherís brothers. Blue eyes, blonde hair etc.
    They also converted and were good Protestants! One needs to remember that it was not easy to be a Jew back then.
    I have always thought that Phillips was a Welsh name - the name meaning "horse lover".
    My great grandfather James Henry Wildermere was addicted to horse racing apparently and proceeded to lose most of their wealth gambling on horses, which I find quite ironic!
    One of the very few birth or death notices that I do not have is that of Henry Lyons. I am going to continue to see if I can locate it. Hopefully this will proof his second name LYONS.
    Kind regards.

  4. #14
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    Default Henry Lyons Phillips

    Hello Philip,
    Just looked up Henry Lyons PHILLIPS:
    Born Oct 6, 1827 in Cuyerville, Eastern Cape
    Baptism by Rev James Barrow, Colonial Chaplain Nov 27th, 1842
    Death: 1900 East Cemetary,
    East London, South Africa.
    NOTE: Birth & Baptism dates * *

  5. #15

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    I have read all the Goldsmid/Goldschmidt/Rothschilds wills/probate on Synagogue Scribes Will Extracts and the full wills up to 1858 to see if there was any reference to a John Phillips. I could see nothing which may not be a surprise if his mother 'married out' of the Jewish faith. I also looked at some Phillips probate under any John Phillips but given that we do not know the name of John Phillips father it was a almost impossible to identify any clues.
    With regard to the establishment of the first Jewish shul in South Africa this was in 1841 Cape Town and the Synagogue established in 1863. However, it is very likely that meetings were held much earlier on in SA given the original Jewish traders in the region.
    As a note there was an Isaac Lyon Goldsmid but other than a commonality of a middle and last name no other data to link him to the mother of John Phillips.
    With regard to the name Phillips this varies regarding location. My own name Phillip is not based on any reference to the Greek name of Philip a lover or friend of horses but purely because my mother wanted to name me after Prince Philip but with a different first name spelling.
    The use of Jewish last names arises for a range of reasons- my own lines include Cohen and Levy but these are based on religious traditions and a tribal or other religious addition can be added to the name e.g. Abraham ben Moses Ha-Cohen ( the priestly line). The naming tradition survived until the late 1790s-1800s in Europe when various laws were passed forcing Jews to adopt surnames- names such as Abraham, Jacobs, Cohen etc were adopted from patriarchical names. However, Jews also adopted Anglicised names, trade names, place names, names they liked, names they were given and many other reasons. Some took the maiden name of their wife.The spelling of these names also vary considerably.
    The variations in spelling of last names can also be seen in numerous non Jewish names- for example my Welsh paternal lines have Rhys, Rees, Reese, Reece among others all for the same line.
    Phillip

  6. #16
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    Good morning Philip
    Sometimes one is "lucky" when trying to find something!
    Found this:
    Henry Lyons Phillips in the Cape Province, South Africa, Estates Death Notice Index, 1834-1956
    Name: Henry Lyons Phillips
    Death Date: 1901
    Volume: 6/9/437
    Reference: 3718
    Source: Master's office/Orphan Chamber, Cape Town (MOOC)
    Source Locaton: National Archives, Cape Town (KAB)

    I will try to obtain a copy of his death notice. Need to find someone living in Cape Town
    It appears though that his name was Henry LYONS Phillips.
    Will see if I can find a death notice for Elizabeth Goldsmid next . . .
    Looking back at some of my info, I see I had made a note from someone that had John Phillips 1st b. 1775 married Elizabeth Anne Goldsmid b. 1776 - I have never been able to prove any of this ???
    Kind regards.
    Kind regards.

  7. #17
    Super Moderator Sue Mackay's Avatar
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    Death notices found on the NAAIRS site can now be viewed free online at Family Search. The one for Henry Lyons Philiips is here, though sadly it doesn't tell you much about his parents
    Sue Mackay
    Insanity is hereditary - you get it from your kids

  8. #18
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    Thank you so much Sue!
    Gosh, the names of his parents just don't want to show themselves!!
    At least I can add two kids under his name

    Onwards we go!
    Kind regards.

  9. #19

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    Here is a very interesting Marriage Record which may or may not add new data on the Phillips/Goldsmid possible connections. I have just noted the online record of Marriages at St Mary Le Bone Middlesex:
    The Register of Marriages of St Mary Le Bone Middlesex 1668-1812 and of Oxford Chapel Vere Street St Mary Le Bone 1736-1754 Published 1917

    Marriage 1790
    JAMES PHILLIPS of St Dunstans in the West, Lond.,w, and Mary STOKES, s.l. by B.L. wit: Mary Lesley, Benj.GOLDSMID, Hester SALOMONS, JOHN PHILLIPS

    The Benjamin Goldsmid who appears as a withness c 1753-1808 who married Jessy Salomons daughter of Israel Levien Salomons and Hester PRAGER.
    This Benjamin Goldsmid is one of the famous bankers. His son Henry married Sarah Ward Ogle and their son Lionel Campbell Goldsmid married Catherine aka Kate Hart daughter of John Hart/Elizabeth Jacobs my 3x great grandparents.

    This is the first time to date that a John Phillips and a Goldsmid appear together. It may or may not be relevant to your search but there is no doubt that Benjamin Goldsmid the banker and James and John Phillips at least knew each other.

    What are your thoughts?

    It maybe that there are family trees held by the Society of Genealogists in London that have data on James Phillips and John Phillips. There are certainly family trees on the Goldsmid which form part of the Anglo Jewish Collections and I have seen some of the data when I last visited the society several years ago but was unaware at that time of the Benjamin Goldsmid link to my Hart line so I did not take any copies.
    Food for thought!
    Phillip

  10. #20

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    The original record of the Marriage of James PHILLIPS to Mary STOKES identifies him as a widower and Mary as a spinster.
    Further research needed to identify this Phillips line.
    Phillip

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