looking for a genealogy genius please?

[Clarky76]

hi everyone, I'm am looking for some input, some thinking outside the box maybe on my double brick brick-wall blocker. this ones had me stumped for the last ten years - I go through periods of being determined to finding these people and then give up for a little while. apologies to those who may have seen the puzzler on genesreunited boards..

I also enlisted the help of Anthony Adolph - it took a year to come back with absolutely nothing. I was gutted to say the least.

I cant believe that a whole branch of my tree is unfathomable and don't want to accept it!! lol especially since its only a maternal great grandmother!

this is the detail

my maternal great grandmother Florence may whiteley born in 1892/3 in Manchester. The blocker is her birth registration, her mothers name and her father- basically anything further back than her on either side!

I know from Various certs:

her father George was born 1864 he married fannie Watson in 1901 as a widower. (the name shows as whitely on this record). they went on to have a son George Watson whitely and a daughter constance.

1901 census George,Fanny and Florence together at 23 Elton street Manchester.

1911 Fanny and ‘Florrie’ (now 18) are in Lincolnshire- a street apart where Florrie is living with a widow as a ‘domestic’ one street away from Fanny and her two children who are visiting a friend (rowston). Florences son (my grandfather) was born in Grimsby so I know for sure this is the right family

A family friend whos mother was friends with Florence told me they 'came down from beccles for the herring and stayed with the rowses'. All of the data I have adds up geographically but ...................

I cant find florences birth record, George, or his father Henry (a farmer who was already passed at Georges 1901 marriage).

I cant find a first marriage for George (assuming it was just before Florence was born in 1892/3) or his first wifes death (assuming between florences birth 1892/3 and Georges second marriage in 1901). I cant find any George whiteley with a father named henry (George was a labourer and Henry a farmer). I cant find any George whiteley birth in Peterboro northants (where the 1901 census states he was born)

There is a baptism for Florence may whiteley in Manchester which says 1892 birth and 1893 baptism with parents George and sarah living at 11 charles street. Assuming they got married from the same address- it could lead to finding the first marriage if its possible to search by address for a marriage? I do think this could be the right family. its in a similar area of Manchester to the other data, its the right year, although means Florence has been using a baptism year rather than birth year

I have looked at every combination of George with father henry, every marriage for a George which leads to a death of a female whiteley. There are none. There are no marriages for a George and Sarah (sarah would be assuming the baptism entry is the right one) which work out to fit the timeline or with a henry on the banns

I could be wrongly assuming that Florence was his daughter to a previous marriage but she is with him on 1901 census aged 8,when I know he only married Fannie that year and he is ' a widower'. I know that fanny and George had four births from their marriage from the 1911 census but only two survived (George Watson Whiteley and constance) so that reinforces the fact Florence wasn’t Fannies (unless illegitimate) fanny was a spinster when marrying.

I have Florences first marriage cert citing her fathers name, I have her death cert and her sons (my grandfather) birth cert. Which all make her birth year 1893. Her daughter told me before she died that her mother was from Manchester, confirmed by the 1911 census. I have narrowed the area down to south Manchester newton heath and chorlton upon medlock. so I'm wondering if the family came down form Eccles rather than beccles as per the friends tale.

The two addresses in Manchester I think all linked up are 11 Charles street (from the baptism) if that’s her, and 23 Elton street (from Fanny and Georges marriage cert) and st augustines church where that baptism took place are all within a small area. There are no births for George in peterboro in 1864 especially none with a henry for a dad.
I have tried Manchester library to no avail. They didn’t think they would hold any more information than I have. But its unusual not to be able to find anything on all three people... (Henry, George or Florence)

I have tried Whiteley, whitley and whitely. I have also tried every Florence may whiteley in Manchester. none match up with a George. I have often wondered if her middle name was added later. I have assumed her mother was also called Florence, because she called her first daughter Florence Alice May- could be a family tradition. but that didn't help

Without breaking this one... that whole branch of my tree cant go any further and its driving me absolutely nuts! 😊

I'm looking for something extra special to crack this tough ten year cookie.. maybe I've looked at it waaaay too much

if any one else is bored and fancies having a go at it I'd be more than grateful..

Many thanks for any efforts, pointers or suggestions...

clarky

[Megan Roberts]

When did Florence die?

If she died after 1939 then her actual date of birth would be shown on the 1939 Register. That might help to narrow things down a little bit.

[almach]

Hi Clarky and welcome to the forums

You forgot to mention that when George married Fanny the certificate gives a middle name of FRIEND, this could be a great help in the search.

As, as you have said there doesn't appear to be either a birth registration or a first marriage registration in those names (GFW) I'm inclined to think either the events took place abroad, or Scotland, or Ireland, OR there's been a change of name for some reason. Proving that possible theory may be difficult, but the B-G sleuths will try their best to solve your mystery

[Dundee10]

Hi Clarky and welcome to the forums

You forgot to mention that when George married Fanny the certificate gives a middle name of FRIEND, this could be a great help in the search.

He also wasn't a labourer, he was a gardener.

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/...01%2C149366501

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X92Z-CSF

[Dundee10]

There is a baptism for Florence may whiteley in Manchester which says 1892 birth and 1893 baptism with parents George and sarah living at 11 charles street.

What is the father's occupation on that baptism? What is the date of birth?

[almach]

Did Florence die as LAMPEY in 1927? If so it makes the search more difficult as we won't have her full birth date to work from.

[almach]

Has this birth reg been discounted?

Florence May Whiteley, Apr-May-Jun 1893, Manchester, Vol: 8d, Page: 255

[almach]

What is the father's occupation on that baptism? What is the date of birth?

Hi Dundee, birth date 30th April 1892 and father's occupation labourer.

[elsinore]

Has this birth reg been discounted?

Florence May Whiteley, Apr-May-Jun 1893, Manchester, Vol: 8d, Page: 255

The GRO Index has mother's maiden name ANDREWS

Peter

[Pam Downes]

Hi Dundee, birth date 30th April 1892 and father's occupation labourer.

Is that from a transcript, or an image? It's not unknown for vicars to make mistakes. My uncle was baptised on 18 February 1917 and the vicar noted that he had been born on 27 December 1917, instead of 1916.
And in one case I was convinced that the vicar had written 1853 for a marriage in the middle of marriages for 1854. Have just re-checked it - it's in the GRO Index for 1854, so is obviously just extremely badly written.
If you're transcribing you're supposed to write what you see, so the vicar could have written 1892 in error for Florence's birth year.

Pam