Isaacs Asher/Hyam/Benjamin = Charles Sinclair

[phillip]

Hi Susan #69 is Saul Lewis Cordwainer who married Sarah Chocquat widow All Hallows London 5 Dec 1800- see London Marriage Bonds and Allegations. The surname spelling varies considerably and I note the Jersey surname on many records.

If he is your Saul Lewis then again this is a Church of England marriage and there are no current links to any Jewish line. If you look on Synagogue Scribes website under Lewin and Lewis you will note numbers of the surnames but nothing currently to connect them to your lines.

[phillip]

More notes on the Isaacs- in the 1841 Census previously posted on in this thread Henry Isaacs Green grocer Red Lion Square age 25 is with Sophia Isaacs age 25. The question is are they brother and sister and if so there is no difference in ages even with the ages rounded down- Henry in other census is given as born circa 1812-1815 and in 1841 would be circa b 1811 if rounded down from 30 - the same applies to Sophia unless her age is 1 or more years different and given the rounding down an approximate age recorded.

The Pogson who appear as witnesses at one of the Isaacs marriages are John Pogson who married Matilda Gable in 1844.He was a bricklayer. Sarah Gable married James Isaacs as previously posted on. All these are Church of England Marriages. The Stephens aka Stevens are the Elizabeth (Betsy)Stevens nee Isaacs relatives.

The Common line with Henry =Fanny Isaacs and Sophia Isaacs as witness but with Hyam Isaacs fishmonger is an issue to be resolved but I wonder if the occupation was an error. None of the Isaacs in the marriages appear literate and unless someone read out the marriage certificate details would not have been able to identify any error.

To date, there is no evidence to confirm any Jewish link in the lines and we only know that James Isaacs had 1 confirmed sibling namely Hy.Isaacs of Wappping and mother Catherine. This James doesn't appear on any of the other Isaacs marriage certificates but that is not to say he is not a sibling and his marriage to Sarah Gable in 1849 links him to the Pogson/Gable. There is no data to link all the siblings together if indeed they are all siblings.

[SusanLorraine]

Dear Philip, thanks once again for your time and attention to detail in answering my many questions. I realise that nothing can be taken for granted. With regard to my Lewis ancestry, yes Joseph Henry Lewis and his father Saul Lewis are indeed my ancestors. I haven't managed to trace the Lewis line any further back and to the best of my knowledge there is no reason to suspect my Lewis ancestors were Jewish. Having traced back my other family lines much further than the Lewis and Isaacs lines, I'm drawn to the conclusion that Hyam Isaacs and his wife Catherine must have been my Jewish ancestors. With regard to James Isaacs' siblings, you're absolutely correct that so far no documental evidence has come to light that proves conclusively that Rosetta, Betsey and Elizabeth were his siblings, nor Henry or Sophia. Based on the fact that the 1841 census shows a Hyam Isaacs with wife Catherine and children Betsey, Rosa, Isaac and Elizabeth, it is quite possible that these are the same Hyam, Catherine, Betsey, Rosa (Rosetta) and Elizabeth that were the parents and siblings of James. That would possibly mean that the person named as Isaac Isaacs on this census and James Isaacs could have been one and the same person as they were of very similar age, but this is only something I'm considering to be a possibility and is far from conclusive.
According to the marriage certificates, Rosetta and Betsey were probably siblings on account of Betsey and her husband Charles being witnesses at the wedding of Rosetta and Thomas. Henry Common and Sophia Isaacs were named as witnesses at the wedding of Betsey Isaacs to Charles Stephens, and Sophia Isaacs was also a witness at the marriage of Henry Common to Fanny Isaacs (who's father was also Hyam Isaacs, "fishmonger"). So we also have Fanny Isaacs as a possible sibling to Betsey/Rosetta/James and Elizabeth as well, and Sophia Isaacs... another sibling or a cousin perhaps?

The more information that comes to light, the more questions it throws up! I feel like I'm going round in circles. It would be good to know "which" Hyam Isaacs is my ancestor, who his parents were and where they came from.
I might try registring on another ancestry-type website, perhaps some have access to records that can't be found on Ancestry.com. I'll also re-visit my list of DNA matches (when I have time for all this!) to see if any have links to the Isaacs line.
Thanks once again, your research and knowledge is alawys enlightening.
Susan

[almach]

Hi Alma
I can't locate the marriage of Henry Isaacs=Ann Elizabeth Peach in 1859 on Ancestry.Co London Marriages. Did you find them on the site and if so would you mind posting the witnesses

Hi Phillip, the witnesses again were Henry and Frances Common.

[phillip]

Thank you Alma for the data.
Hi Susan, I understand your frustration researching your lines and have experienced the same with my own research. Do you have any relatives who can shed light on the lines?
I have looked at the family trees on Ancestry which have your lines and noted that they have linked James Isaacs the coachman in the Settlement Order to a James Isaacs fishmonger. We know that there was a Hyam Isaacs fishmonger and you have speculated that Isaac may have adopted the first name James.

If so, how James became a fishmonger is not known if in fact he is James the coachman.
The London Church of England Marriages show-
1870 Sarah Isaacs=James Lewis- her father James Isaacs fishmonger
1871 William Isaacs=Hannah Lewis -his father James Isaacs fishmonger -Nb He is brother to Sarah and the Lewis are inlaws
1893 Annie Isaacs =Edward Mowatt-her father James Isaacs fishmonger

I have not looked at all the Isaacs London marriages for a father James.

With regard to the possible Channel Island name for the wife of Saul -my own 4 x great grandfather is buried in the Jewish Cemetery Almorah St.Helier Jersey and I have researched the burials and written about them on this site and on Cemetery Scribes. However, I also know that numbers of burials in other cemeteries may not be recorded.

I would not give up on the research but suggest you carefully map out all these potential links and if possible contact those who have close links to your lines. Responses can be variable but it may give you further evidence.

[phillip]

Hi Susan
Key questions are is James Isaacs Coachman the same James Isaacs fishmonger and if so, how did he become a fishmonger.Is James aka Isaac. Are the fishmonger Isaacs with father James Isaacs fishmonger the same children as those named in the Order of Removal? Is any Jewish line buried deep in the family and not in the Isaacs?

I would look on Genesreunited, Findmypast,Familysearch plus other websites and make contact with relevant people who share individuals on your tree.

[almach]

If so, how James became a fishmonger is not known if in fact he is James the coachman.
The London Church of England Marriages show-
1870 Sarah Isaacs=James Lewis- her father James Isaacs fishmonger
1871 William Isaacs=Hannah Lewis -his father James Isaacs fishmonger -Nb He is brother to Sarah and the Lewis are inlaws
1893 Annie Isaacs =Edward Mowatt-her father James Isaacs fishmonger

Hi Phillip,

I found these marriages.
Henry Isaacs/Jane Garrett, Jul 9th 1877, Bethnal Green, Henry a fish salesman, his father James a fish salesman. A witness was James Lewis

Samuel Isaacs/Alice Davey, June 28th 1880, St Thomas, Bethnal Green, father James, both Samuel and James were fish salesmen

[phillip]

Hi Alma
Thank you for the latest data. Looking back on the marriage of James Isaacs Coachman to Sarah Gable the John and Matilda Pogson are John Pogson=Matilda Gable. Her father William a weaver and John a bricklayer.
These Pogson/Gable are also inlaws in the later Isaacs marriages as posted on. The relationships between James Isaacs/Sarah Gable and their children with the later Gable are very close. I have not worked out how close.

This data suggests that James Isaacs coachman is also James Isaacs fishmonger but we would need to set out the data clearly. My thinking is that James switched jobs and became a fish porter and fishmonger but I have no proof.

Again, there is no evidence in any of these lines of Jewish roots. There was a Henry Isaacs burial DPL 0361 24 Oct 1805 Butcher and Fishmonger Duke Street Aldgate father's Hebrew name Enzley Fishman- Synagogue Scribes website but this record is a 'long shot' and there is no evidence that this Isaacs had any link to Hyam Isaacs greengrocer father of James.
Similarly, there are Isaacs who are Jews engaged in the fruit trade and fish trade but nothing to link them to Hyam Isaacs or his son James.London Street Directory 1843 Isaac Isaacs 8 Cullum Street Fenchurch Street; Samuel Isaacs fruit merchant 5 and 7 St.James Place Aldgate; Samuel Isaacs orange merchant 18 Mitre Street Aldgate. There are others and Henry Mayhew lists them in his 1850s research.

Did we ever identify James Isaacs post 1851 Census where he is a coachman with Sarah and children?

[almach]

Did we ever identify James Isaacs post 1851 Census where he is a coachman with Sarah and children?

Apart from the 1857 removal order, Phillip, no I don't think we have.

[almach]

Looking back on the marriage of James Isaacs Coachman to Sarah Gable the John and Matilda Pogson are John Pogson=Matilda Gable. Her father William a weaver and John a bricklayer.
These Pogson/Gable are also inlaws in the later Isaacs marriages as posted on. The relationships between James Isaacs/Sarah Gable and their children with the later Gable are very close. I have not worked out how close.

Phillip, there's a probable 1841 census for Sarah Gable with William a silk weaver, also a Matilda.

Carter St, Bethnal Green. HO107; Piece: 694; Book: 7; Folio: 9; Page: 9

William Gable 45; Eliza Gable 35; Eliza Gable 15; Matilda Gable 15; Sarah Gable 14
Nathaniel Gable 10; Mary Gable 7; Jane Gable 2