Isaacs Asher/Hyam/Benjamin = Charles Sinclair

[almach]

Hi Susan,

The suggestions Phillip has made are good advice. I do think it would be advantageous for you to contact Denione as if she has had her DNA tested you can compare yours with hers.

Have you read the thread from the beginning? There's so much good research there if you haven't may I suggest you set some time aside to do so.

Best wishes,

Alma.

[denione]

Firstly I must thank Philip and Alma for so diligently replying to SusanLorraine. You have done a superb job of referring back to original posts/data and helping SusanLorraine uncover some truths.

Unfortunately my brickwall remains on Asher and Betsy Isaacs origins.

Unlinking their son Hyam Isaacs (glass cutter) and the other Hyam Isaacs (fruit dealer) has been quite a challenge. I'm not sure I can add any further insight other than my copy of the baptism for Hyam's children in 1814 clearly states his birth as 5th March 1780 written in pen to the right of the entry. The Hyam born 1771 is obviously no connection.

My father (Ken Sinclair - great-great-great grandson of Hyam son of Asher) has done a DNA analysis on My Heritage. The results are pasted below.

North and West Europe 83.6%
Irish, Scottish, and Welsh 46.5%
North and West European 34.2%
Scandinavian 2.9%

South Europe 13.0%
Greek and South Italian 13.0%

Ashkenazi Jewish 3.4%

I'm not sure if this is of any help but please let me know if further thoughts/queries.

Denise

[phillip]

Hi Denise
First of all many thanks for responding to the thread. A couple of questions, in your research are you aware of the names of the researchers Susan referred to regarding her DNA test. Do you recognise the names?

Are you also aware of any James Isaacs=Sarah Gable or Catherine Isaacs among your lines?


I also noted the various children of Hyam Isaacs=Amelia Woolf and who they married - would it make sense for Susan to cross check these individuals with the DNA of others who share the same families providing they have taken DNA Tests.

Finally, would it make sense for Susan to take the same DNA test as your father to confirm any relationship to you and your father.

Your response to these points would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks again for replying to the thread.

[SusanLorraine]

Thanks to all of you… Philip, Alma and Denise for your comments which have been immensely helpful. I’ve not yet read Denise’s thread but will do so. Alma correctly pointed out my misunderstanding of the baptism records… of course a child of about 4 months old couldn’t possibly have been a glass cutter!! Haha

This brings me full circle, back to the 1941 census which states that Hyam Isaacs, “dealer” who would have been born around 1771 is the more likely candidate for the role of my great-great-great grandfather, as he had a wife called Catherine who must have been the mother (whereabouts unknown) of my great-great grandfather James Isaacs as named on the Order of Removal. This census also gives the names of Hyam and Catherine’s younger children which match the siblings of James Isaacs quite closely in both names and ages (Betsy, Rosa (Rosetta?), Elizabeth). The only difference is that an Isaac Isaacs is mentioned and not a James, and coincidentally Isaac was roughly the same age as James, which leads me to believe that possibly James was an adopted name and that his true first name could have been Isaac. There were possibly some older siblings who would have been of an age to have left home by 1941. One is Henry Isaacs, which fits with the Order of Removal in which it mentions a brother “Hy” and also a Zoseman Isaacs, as this name appears on the death certificate of Hyam Isaacs who was born in 1771. There was also a sister Frances “Fanny” Isaacs born around 1818.

We’re getting back to a “best fit” scenario and I’m not taking anything for granted, but I don’t have any identified DNA matches linking me with any of the Isaacs family (only to Sarah Gable) so possibly I should do the DNA test of another test provider to see if any information comes up linking me to this Hyam Isaacs and family. Perhaps someone could recommend a good one? It’s a great pity they don’t all cross-reference information with one another.

Chat soon
Susan

[phillip]

Hi Susan
I have had a DNA test several years ago and am aware that several of the more recent tests do share data in order to provide wider and triangulated information. There is DNA Forum on this site which has very knowledgeable people. You might want to share your DNA queries on that site.
With regard to your Isaacs line I have a particular interest in researching the Jewish Isaacs because I have numbers of Isaacs in my own lines. In addition, I am a retired university academic who studied History and Theology and have spent twenty years researching not only my Jewish lines but those of others. This has helped me develop a very good knowledge of resources and where to seek further information.

The problem for any of us who have Anglo Jewish roots is that most of the UK data is only available circa mid 1700s with a few records post 1658 early re- settlement of Jews in the UK and these early records are mainly Sephardic. The Hyam Isaacs line which includes myself and Denise are Ashkenazi Jews mostly from Eastern Europe with further settlement mostly in Germany, Holland,France.

Few Jews had surnames until the mid late 1700s and many names were of the place of origin, imposed upon them as in France and Austria and other countries or adopted to become more Anglicised. Anyone researching their Jewish roots need to read about Jewish history with regard to the Jewish naming traditions and why they came to the UK and elsewhere.

[phillip]

Hi Susan
Please take another look at #54 and 62 of this thread where I posted on Zoesman Isaacs the informant on the death certificate of Hyam Isaacs in 1849. You will note on the marriage of Zoesman he refers to his father's Hebrew name and Rosemary Lane address. In the Settlement Order for James Isaacs he refers to being born in Rosemary Lane. Whether or not this is coincidence is not known.
In addition,when Hyam Isaacs married Catherine Levy in 1806 his Hebrew name was Moshe Chaim - The Anglicised name of Moshe is Moses. (I need to check the Hebrew name for Chaim and Anglicised version).

Again, careful checks need to be made because of the ages of Hyam and Catherine and whether or not it is feasible for them to have children as late as 1825 in the case of James Isaacs.

Rosemary Lane was very well known for being the area for the sale of second hand clothes mainly by Jewish traders. If you look on Jewish records you will see Rosemary Lane occur in many cases with the individual named as a clothes salesman.

My advice as previously posted is to map out the known data for the posts on this thread with question marks and confirmation against each individual. If you don't do this then you may miss key aspects and possibly repeat what you already know.

[phillip]

Hi Susan
Another key point in your research is to note that on Ancestry there are numbers of individuals who have posted on Zoeman Isaacs and got totally the wrong data on his wife. As you know from his marriage on Synagogue Scribes he married a Christian. She took on the Hebrew name Rachel. That is not he real name nor is her family name Abraham or Abrahams. If you read the Teshuvah (the Jewish process of conversion) you will see the following comments..The converts name in Jewish tradition "By long standing practice we refer to the Jew by choice as 'the son/daughter of Abraham our father (ben/bat Avraham avinu)the ger (convert)is called the son/daughter of Abraham because Abraham is called 'the father of many nations'(Genesis 17:4-5)

In short, if people are going to research their Jewish roots then they should read about some of the key points in naming tradition as well as the history of the diaspora.
It is likely that the original ketubah (marriage record for Zoesman and Hyam Isaacs=Catherine Levy0 were not retained by the Synagogue because these often would have more details of parents.

[almach]

Hi Phillip and Denise,

Thank you for your good and informed advice given to Susan.

[almach]

Again, careful checks need to be made because of the ages of Hyam and Catherine and whether or not it is feasible for them to have children as late as 1825 in the case of James Isaacs.

Hi Phillip, although Hyam was born 1771 it would seem Catherine, his wife, was much younger.

On the 1841 census Hyam is 70 and Catherine 50. In 1851 Catherine is 63, allowing for ages being round down by up to 5yrs on the 1841 census it would be reasonable to accept Catherine was born circa 1788, therefore, about 38yrs when James was born.

[phillip]

Hi Alma
A good point regarding Catherine's age. I re-looked earlier and made a note.